400s were made in 1967 and 1968, you missed this on your post so you might want to add this, also the distributers in 1973-1974 SD blocks will not fit other blocks. All connecting rod are physically the same in all blocks from 1956 on up. 6.625" I was President of Western Washington Firebirds from 1992- 1994 which had a membership of 200 plus Firebird members . Pontiacs were one of the best engines ever made for sticking with the original design and never changed outer dimensions of their blocks. Just bore and stroke with some internal casting changes like cylinder wall thicknesses. The 421-428-455s got 3.25" main journals and were cross drilled from the factory and the 400cid and smaller has the 3" journal. Today there are so many options for cranks,rods etc. You can now change a 400 into a 455 using an aftermarket crank that has the 3" jounals, H beam rods and custom forged pistons all balanced for under $1500. Also the aftermarket heads are creating quite a stir as they now have Edelbrock aluminum 72 cc round ports, 87cc round port, Kauffman D port aluminum heads, Tiger heads, High port heads ect ect. There has never been a better time for Pontiac power as now. As far as 400s being tough to beat, I have a 400 block that was built stock on the exception of TRW forged piston (which are replacement pistons) and cost me $999 in 1991. I installed a set of non ported 1968 #16 heads and am running stock valves ( 39 years old ) I run a set of headers, an after market intake and a Holley carb. I am doing mid 12s on pump gas and high 11s on a poor nitrous set up. I am still abusing this engine 16 years later on the street and at the track and it still runs up to 6200 on a regular basis. You gotta love the torque of a Pontiac. I have been into Pontiacs since 1979 and have 4 1968 Firebirds 1968 400 Auto Coupe 1968 400 4 sp Coupe 1968 400 4 sp Coupe 1968 400 4 Sp Convert with a 1966 GTO Tripower. 1989 GTA Convertible 350. I have sold a 1967 400 ( had a 1971 455 in it)4 sp bird, a 1968 400 4 sp bird, a 1969 400 4 sp bird, a 1968 enduro delete 400 4 sp GTO, and a 1978 Trans AM 400 Auto. Now Im building a 1929 Whippet with a Hemi.
HOT ROD Magazine did an article about a year ago about a guy that's been abusing stock bottow end 400 and 455 poncho motors for decades pushing something like 800 ponies (if memory serves)...i can't wait to fire up my '74 400 in my '29 plymouth with a '61 pontiac posi and 3.23 gears...
I tried to shoehorn a stock 65 389 with Turbo 400 into my 57 and the biggest problem is the tailshaft won't fit through the X member.If you could find a short tailsfhaft 400 it might work.
I've posted many times about driving a stock '60 2bbl 389 with the dual coupling Hydro. It would cruise at 65 at around 1800 RPM, but could keep up with little rice-burners if you put the pedal down hard, and the way the trans was designed if you leave it in 3rd and go, it shifted up to high by itself - around 70. For a 4000-lb car it got good gas milage and was a lot of fun to drive, with the long wheelbase and wide track it handled great - even with manual steering. I still miss driving it. I had a '73 Grandville I kind of got screwed out of, but that car could spin the tires pretty easy with the 4bbl 455 - and those are around 4400 lbs too. A fully dressed Pontiac doesn't weigh a lot more than a small block Chevy, either, around 650 lbs if I remember right, and they're close size-wise too - generally anywhere you can put the Chevy, you could also put a 455 Pontiac.
great thread!! i do agree, you can't beat the power of a fine tuned pontiac.. i'm running a 389 out of a 66' lemans in my 60' catalina and as heavy as the car is it has some serious torque!
Super Duty parts were available at the parts counter in 1960 and 1961, but no factory built SD cars were available until 1962. They were either Catalinas or Grand Prixs in 1962, or Tempests, Lemans, Catalinas or Grand Prixs in 1963.
Yes, true, you could get Super Duty parts over the counter in 1960. 1961 is when the factory came out with the Super Duty car off the line with the Super Duty engine parts shipped in the trunk. There were 12 Venturas made that year with this program. Mickey Thompson got a black one, Packer Pontiac got a white one, Royal Pontiac got a white one, Arnie Beswick got a Bristol Blue one. We helped restore Arnie's in 1996. This was also the first car that Arnie applied the Ford truck hood scoop too. To date there are only 6 of these cars known to exist. Arnie's was just sold at the Mecum auction this spring for $262,000.
I'm looking at a copy of the shipping manifest for Arnie's car - it came from the factory with a 'P6' code 303hp single four barrel engine under the hood, which was the 'police interceptor' engine. It did have a pair of SD heads and a McKellar #8 cam in the trunk, so I suppose strictly speaking it was equipped with SD parts from the factory. Arnie, Mickey Thompson, Royal, Packer and a few other insider guys got deals like that but they probably wouldn't qualify as regular production options. Pontiac announced availability of the SD421 over Labor Day weekend in 1961 just in time for the U.S. Nationals, which consisted of about a dozen of those engines being shipped out to Arnie, Mickey and the others in pieces.
Arnie's car was also shipped with the tripower setup in the trunk. Arnie never put the 421 SD engine in the '61 even though it was available for the US Nationals. The famous pick of him coming off the line at Indy in the finals aginist Dyno Don still had the Ventura equipped with the 389. Two years later Arnie sold the car to his mechanic Andy Perry out of Iowa. Andy then put a 421 SD in the car. Andy raced the car for about a year, year and a half before selling it to 4 guys that were around my area in Forreston in 1965.
I'm gonna take that reminder from Dirty as a hint to double-check my firing order again...today is the day the 400 finds a home in my framerails...
Was it @ the March Meet earlier this year? I talked to a guy with a Pontiac dragster there with some crazy welded up heads and a helluva girdle arrangement on the bottom end
So we can beat this point to death from http://www.donzig.com/tech.html here's a comparison of a Pontiac's firing order compared to a Chevy.
For those that do not want to have to buy lots of high dollar parts to make your Pontiacs run better, please grab a copy of Dad's book and have some fun reading and learning. It truly is a well written, easy-to-read book. it has some interesting history in it to go along with the great info posted here so far. I think you can get it around $15 from Amazon or $19 from your local booksellers. We also listed many reputable builders and suppliers. Tom Hand http://www.amazon.com/How-Build-Per...d_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1195835788&sr=8-1
I took the x-frame out of my 55, it was rusted up real bad. But it was more like sheetmetal than something more structural like you would think. I'm using a regular trans crossmember .
While we are talking ponchos, I paid $12000 for a motor from Bruce Fulper at Rock n Roll engineering and the oil pump pickup fell off and you know the rest. Don't even buy an oil filter from this guy. Don't say I didn't warn you!! I don't buy race motors anymore but you would think he would of tacked or bolted the pickup. I am not even going to get into the rest of the lies and theft discovered upon teardown. The above books are excellent!
Hello Tom, glad to see you here. Im Sixt8bird from PY. Your Dad did the best job on this book. Very Good info.
Alright, anyone wanna decode my casting numbers for me? block 0378276 with XY underneath it, back of block on pass side behind head 500557, pass side under head GM-2 D N with arrow pointing to N, heads 6X...I was told it's a '74 400, is that what it is?
500557 is the casting number for a 1976 400ci block. The 2 D N is the date code from the day it was casted. 6X was a code for 1976 heads as well, although they used that code in other years as well. You should look on the front of the block, on the passenger side of the water pump, to get the codes stamped there. They will tell you just what engine it was, including HP and if it was from a manual or automatic car. There's a good lookup feature for Pontiac blocks, heads, intakes carbs and cams on the Wallace Racing website at http://www.wallaceracing.com/enginesearch4.htm
I don't want this thread to turn in to a "Your info is wrong" "No, your info is wrong" or "Hey, you left something out therefore all your info is wrong" .In the SBC world that we all live in my objective was to provide as much information as i know or as i can remember from my serious Pontiac days of 24 years ago. I am the 30th member of the HAMB and there was a time when Rocky & i were the only Pontiac guys on here. Its nice to see that has increased. That said, The Super Duty argument has been going on for as long as i can remember but the experts have told me the real truth. People like Jess Tyree, Jim Wangers,and the Anderson Bros. have told me there were indeed a handful of 1961 SD's that came from the factory to "special customers" that were "part of the program" . In other words, If you knew someone,had something to offer,or was part of the "in crowd" anything was possible. In 1962 Bristol Blue was no longer available. After many conversations with the factory, Pontiac agreed to paint Arnie Beswicks 62 SD Catalina a discontinued 1961 Bristol Blue color. One of the rarest cars i've ever owned (that i should of never sold) was a 1961 Ventura bubble top. The original owner was a drag racer who owned/managed a Pontiac dealership in downtown San Diego. a few years ago he packed up a few things and left everything else behind - including a 63 Vette and this Ventura. I ended up buying the car from the original owner's sister. This car had a 1961 421 block with #306 heads,tri power,long branch manifolds,T10 4 speed, 3.90 posi rear. The car had original black paint and the interior was factory tri tone blue ! I was given pictures of the car racing in the early 60's, the car had registration slips in the glove box dating as far back as 1963 ! When i paid Pontiac Historical Society ( PHS ) send me a copy of the P.O. it said "Special Order" next to the Engine code. It also said "Special Order" next to the color code. In addition the data tag said "INSTALL 4 SPEED STICK" right on it. A guy that lives around the corner from me is a third owner of a pearl green 61 Bonneville 2 door hardtop. He has owned the car for 30 years (25 that i can personally remember). The car is painted a color that was available from Cadillac in 1961 and NOT available to Pontiac.....But, Pontiac went ahead and painted it anyway. Jim Wangers told me years ago that no 421's or 428's were ever installed in GTO's from the factory but that "Dealers did all sorts of things". When i asked him about 421's and the early years he said "If things were made, available, and you were part of the program"............ He then told me that in 1962 Hayden Profitt & Mickey Thompson received a pair of new Tempests without engines. Also delivered from the factory were a pair of SD 421's. Mickey & Hayden installed the engines in the Tempests then took both cars to the winter nationals at Pomona. Both cars were entered in SS or Super Stock class where NHRA denied them entry due to the fact that not enough cars were built with those engines at the time. The result was to put them in A F/X , B F/X, or A M/P classes. Two interesting stories: Back in the 80's i bought a Ram Air III , 4 speed 69 Judge from the original owner. Her and her daughter both went to the local Pontiac dealership and bought Carosel Red (orange) Judges new. I ended up with the mothers car. This was an original paint car . Heads,Exhaust manifolds,Intake,Trans,carb,R.A. pan, etc were all correct....BUT...the block was a 1969 Ram Air IV. without coming off like i was interrogating her i asked a ton of questions after purchasing it. Did she ever have engine trouble and take the car back to the dealership, did she ever take the car to an auto repair shop for a great length of time, did she special order anything when purchasing the car? etc,etc,etc. The answer was "no"...and she bought the car off the show room floor. Another time my dad bought a Tri Power 66 GTO from the original owner. Upon thorough inspection we noticed the outside carbs were disconnected. The gentlemen told us that when the car was around a year old it lost a lot of oil pressure so he took it back to the dealership. They had the car for 2-3 weeks and when he got the car back it never had the power it once had. When we got the car home and checked the numbers the block was a 326 lemans engine ! Whats my point? Anything is possible. Again, happy holidays !
I put my stamped codes in my previous post, did a search on the wallace racing website and came up empty, any ideas? 0378276XY is the stamped number
That's not my intent either, sorry if it came out that way... as you said, There are a lot of stories out there, but my point is they all involve one of the big name guys...if you were a regular guy those REAL special engine parts probably weren't available. Still, there were a lot of Pontiacs that didn't fit the norm. As an example, my '61 Bonneville hardtop came from the factory with a 348hp tripower engine and a four speed, which was pretty unusual for a Bonneville (most guys who wanted to go fast would buy a lighter Catalina or Ventura.) It also was painted in 1959 factory colors - on the trim tag the color blank says 'special.' It's also sort of a stripper, as it had no power steering or brakes or vinyl seats or any of the other things you'd expect to find in a Bonnie. Besides the engine/trans combo and paint, the only options on the build sheet were a pushbutton radio, a heater, and antifreeze. The original owner definitely had to special order this one.
0378276 is the VIN of the car it came out of. If you plug in just the XY engine code, the Wallace Racing site comes up with a 1976 170hp 400, code XY, automatic transmission, 7.6 compression ratio, 555 cam, 6x heads, single 2 barrel carb, 17056160/64 carb, block casting 500557.
Here's the problem, I got the motor with a stock 4bbl intake #525355 still attached, it was that way when it was pulled from the car...and why isn't there a stamped block code and a vin # in its place?
then you also need a matching balancer and pulleys, too. if i wanted to keep my early car looking (closer to) original, without the transmission headaches, is use a late short block and trans, with the right year heads, intake, front cover, etcetera....
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