I need help to bend spindle arms for split bones the right way,have 40' spindles on a 4" dropped axle and split bones,i've got to bend them down to clear the frame.any help would be much appreciated.wayne
Heat and Bend them down enough so the tierod clears, then bend them so that a straightline extends thru the center of the kingpin, tierod end and the third member of the rear axle
If you can- use a rosebud tip on your torch to heat the arms. The rosebud tip gives a more even heat distribution. alex
another thing I did when I put a Mor-Drop on my Model A (3 3/4" drop) was to use 41 Ford spindles..the taper is the opposite of the 40 spindles..that helps too. But you can just retaper for the rod ends from the other side for more clearance of the tie rod to the 'bones..
Better not to "quench" them at all. Oil quenching will temper the steel, and make it brittle, then they will need to be annealed. Far better to let them air cool, and no, don't blow air from the compressor on them to speed the cooling along. Be carefull that you don't apply too much heat close to the kingpin boss, as there is a chance of distorting the bushing bore---then your spindles are worthless. I wouldn't worry too much about the Ackerman angle, as you are only trying to bend the arms either up or down for tie-rod clearance---try not to bend them "side-ways". You will need two bends in each spindle arm---one near the spindle arm (but not too near) to bend the main body of the arm, and another bend about 1 1/4" in from the spindle "eye" to bring it back level again.
Wayne----I have never used a rose-bud tip, in 41 years of hotrod building. I just use the cutting torch for heating things. Just don't get confused and hit the oxygen handle.
Magnuflux after the bending is done. We bent one once and it developed minute cracks in it. It's junk now (I guess we could cut the arm off and use a bolt-on arm).
hahaha! I was telling grandpa he needed a recipricating saw. "I ain't had one for 45 years, why would I need one now?" One of his most prized tools. Same thing when he traded in his huge angle grinders for the smaller dewalt sized ones. A rose bud isn't a have to have, but it does spread it out and helps to keep from pooling in area. You're dead on on the spindle drop....easy to understand..
oil quenching is what you do when you want to make it hard and brittle. Either air cool or better yet, bury it in dry coarse sand for a while. The heat transfer through the sand will be slower than in air, especially if there is a breeze.
Good tips here. alchemy -- Magnaflux after bending, critical for safety brianangus and junk-junkie -- good tips on cooling after heating, the sand is a good idea if it is heated. Question "I wouldn't worry too much about the Ackerman angle". Using later model spindles for a A, the ackerman angle will be wrong. The A has a shorter wheel base and requires the arms to be bent in to correct. Bent mine using tips from people here on the HAMB. Used a jig to insure both were bent the same. Inserted a old king pin in the spindle to minimize any chance of damage to the bores (before putting in new bushings). Put a bolt in the tie rod holes for the same reason. Heated area to bend to a dull cherry red and bent SLOW, keeping the heat on when bending as well. After each bend, didn't put in sand, but did cover with a old metal pail to keep drafts off until they cooled down some. Masgnafluxed after and came out good. Attached pic shows a spindle in the jig. Discolouration shows areas that were bent. Jig is just some scrap welded together, nothing fancy needed.
Air cool only in dead air or pack in sand. Water or oil quenching will make the metal brittle and less resistant to shock without snapping off.
This is the bad part about the internet---BAD information gets spread around and some people dont know what to believe. I will worry about YOU driving down the road. There is a reason, A GOOD reason that Ackerman is important. Learn about it before you post...and get off my lawn!
A lot of my kids build go carts in class. I learned about Ackerman 30 yrs ago. A couple of my kids failed to design it in and had SCARY handling. Every properly designed car and truck out there, both OEM and aftermarket have Ackerman designed in. It is too easy to set up to ignore just string line or laser shot from kingpin to diff centerline and too important to your safety and mine... Ignore Ackerman, other wheel alignment and driveline phasing and your in for quite the ride...just please do it in an open field.
Guys, maybe I'm just lucky, but I'm not totally ignorant of steering principles. The rod I built 20 years ago used a 48 Ford I-beam axle and Econoline van spindles and steering arms. The car I built 10 years ago used a tube axle and repop 40 Ford spindles with built in steering arms. The roadster pickup I built last year uses a 4" dropped Superbell axle and original 40 Ford spindles with stock steering arms. All of these cars used a Vega cross throw steering, and they all handled extremely well. On all of the cars, I opted to either build or buy parallel 4 bar and batwing setups so that I wouldn't have to mess with bending the steering arms to clear split wishbones. Either I got real lucky with my unmatched axles and steering arms, or else as I suspect, the Ackerman is important enough to give consideration to, but not so exact a science that being out 1/4" one way or the other will make any noticable difference on a hotrod.
Ok girls, as long as the water is starting to heat up, lets throw this in to the kettle. An important consideration when using stock spindles with later after market dropped axles is the interference with the stock steering arm and the axle drop. Due to the increase drop over stock the steering arm now comes in contact with the drop beam portion of the axle when the steering is turned lock to lock. This interference limits the swing of the spindle and limits the turning radius of the vehicle. It is not as noticeable on stretched axles but does exist. Like an 8 point k turn? Because the steering arm is forged almost perpendicular to the lower spindle bushing no amout of heating or bending will obtain enough clearence to lessen the turning radius. This has always been a problem and "in the old days" due to lack of aftermarket steering arms and was usually good enough, was good enough. Now with different design steering arms this problem is easily remedied. Steering arms cost less than $100 a pair and are available in different drops to accomodate radius rod clearence problems as well. Using expense to avoid this is sort of like saying a $100 worth of seat belts will help me in a crash but I wouldn't put a $100 into steering because what is there steers good enough and free. Also take into consideration that heating and bending of the steering arm also shortens the actual length of the arm and in real time slows down the rotating aspect of the steering slightly. This is aspect often over ridden when the spindles are on a shorter wheel base car, dumb luck. Now in regard to the ackerman principle, bending steering arms and not addressing this is not good car construction technique. Yes, I know that we have all ridden or driven cars where this has not been fully addressed but terminology handles ok, could be turned into handles really well, when all principles applied. It is an important aspect of front end alignment that lack of or excessive in most cases promotes an accelerated tire wear as well as altering the handing characteristics of the vehicle to the negative. Buy some steering arms. .02$
As usual Dick is "right on". Sure, you can "get away" with a lot of things when building these cars but it only takes one "got away with" to create a corpse. For your sake (and mine) try and do things the right way. Frank
I agree with those of you who think the akerman is important. and agree about the idea of cooling slowly. I think these are time tested and proven with science. the main thing I want to say is that you guys saying some is going to create a corpse or some one driving a car with out akerman is going to hurt some one, just make people not listen. If any one has a story of the lack of akerman killing someone, I have never heard it. I definately paid attention when I bent my arms and let them cool slowly. And yes if someone quenched the arms in water or even oil, they could brake in use and that would be very dangerous. People should listen to these older guys with experience, and they should pay attention to how things should be done. but the "your gonna Kill someone with that thing" mentalily is the same shit they said about hot rods originally, and alot of people wanting to build a rod themselves are in a way rebelling, so I don;t think it helps to use that bs. If you want to do things right then do it, I did, because I want to do it right, not because I am afraid to die. I hope this makes sense, cheers
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