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T5 Info

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Flat Ernie, Jun 20, 2004.

  1. continentaljohn
    Joined: Jul 24, 2002
    Posts: 4,900

    continentaljohn
    Member

    Any updates on adapters on the T-5 with a Ford bolt pattern:D. Does anyone have a list of adapter suppliers?
    Thanks to Ernie for all the others that listed in the great post!!! Great info Guys!
     
  2. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,406

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    Well, they're rated much lower from a HP perspective than the V8 trannys. They don't bolt up to anything other than a 4-cyl w/o a lot of fiddling, the input shaft is a different length, diameter and spline. These are the weakest of the Ford T5s and have relatively poor gear ratios:

    1st - 3.97 2nd - 2.34 3rd - 1.46 4th - 1.00 5th - 0.79

    While these ratios are somewhat better than the S10 4.03 gearset, if you're going to go to the trouble of swapping an S10 tailshaft/topcover onto a Mustang T5, you might as well start with a V8 (or V6) model that has a more common input shaft and better gear ratios...

    I doubt these trannys are holding up to the 5.0 guys beating on them...V8 versions, sure. Z-spec, sure. Stock 4-cyl? Doubtful.
     
  3. continentaljohn
    Joined: Jul 24, 2002
    Posts: 4,900

    continentaljohn
    Member

    My trans is a 93 S-10 4cy NOS and has the Ford bolt pattern. I got a 53-54 bell housing ( I have both a stamped steel and cast) I found that the stamped one fits better because of the top bolt hole location. The bottom two bolts fit nice and the flange for the Trans-bell is a nice snug fit. The stamped one is wider and were a hole can be drilled ,reinforced (welded Nut) and another bolt can be used. The last hole will need mods to the bell housing.
    Did anyone else do this?:D if so did you cut the bell and fit a flange for the last bolt or weld a extra flange pcs?
     

    Attached Files:

  4. tjm73
    Joined: Feb 17, 2006
    Posts: 3,397

    tjm73
    Member

    I personally know a guy who has made over 100 full throttle, NOS spraying, speed shifting passes in a 5.0 Mustang with a 4 cylinder T5.
     
  5. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,406

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    I think Modernbeat has done several this way. Personally, I've never done one like this, but should be easy.



    Honestly, I doubt that's a stock 4-cyl T5. First, it won't bolt up - the input shaft is the wrong length & would require a custom clutch disk due to differences in diameter and spline count. Secondly, even the WC units used in the SVOs are rated nearly 100lb/ft lower than the V8 stuff - just doesn't make any sense to start with that.

    I'm not saying your friend isn't doing that, I'm just telling you why it doesn't make any sense.
     
  6. continentaljohn
    Joined: Jul 24, 2002
    Posts: 4,900

    continentaljohn
    Member

    Thanks Ernie, I have looked for the adapter with the pedal rod sticking out but could find him or his website, any leads?
     
  7. tjm73
    Joined: Feb 17, 2006
    Posts: 3,397

    tjm73
    Member

    He runs them because he can buy 2 or 3 of them for the price of one V8 T5. I'm pretty sure the T5 bolt pattern for Ford is the same whether it's a 4 or an 8 box. Bell housings are different though.

    I drove a 5.0 Mustang GT that a different friend put a Turbocoupe T5 in. There must be an easy way to do it because plenty of people have done it.
     
  8. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,406

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    That must mean he's running through a lot of them! ;):D

    Bellhousing pattern is indeed the same. It's the input shaft. Now, the length isn't horribly different (slightly more than 1/4" if memory serves), but the clutch disk would be different and a different T/O bearing would be required. Certainly, once you did that, you could bolt in as many as you needed easily...but it's still begging the question - why?


    Are you looking for the Dwight Bond adapter plate that has the shaft for the Model-A pedals? If so, I heard Dwight Bond is out of adapters & doesn't have any plans to re-do them...
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2009
  9. Snarl
    Joined: Feb 16, 2007
    Posts: 1,639

    Snarl
    Member

    John, my apologies - the stamped steel bellhousing typically works with the Ford-patterned T5, not the S10.



    Just to clarify, you mean Chevy pattern, not S10, right?

    the tranny in the pictures looks like a WC S10 4cyl, as it has 26 splines, long collar, & long input snout.

    What is the center hole diameter on those Ford bellhousings pictured?
     
  10. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,406

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    Doh! You're right - I've got three PM conversations and four email conversations going about T5 right now - trying to keep everyone's projects straight in my head is a bit much for my tiny brain! :( (corrected my original post)

     
  11. continentaljohn
    Joined: Jul 24, 2002
    Posts: 4,900

    continentaljohn
    Member

    The bore in the Ford bell housing are 4.680 ID. The spline is a 26 with a input snout collar of 4" long 1.406 od and overall length with splines and imput pilot surface 7" were the pilot surface just sticks out of the Bell housing.
    I had planned on making a new collar but wanted to get a throw out bearing first along with a clutch plate. Any ideas?Thanks
     
  12. Snarl
    Joined: Feb 16, 2007
    Posts: 1,639

    Snarl
    Member

    I take it you mean that the collar diameter isn't going to work with the Ford throwout bearing?
    Too large or too small?
     
  13. continentaljohn
    Joined: Jul 24, 2002
    Posts: 4,900

    continentaljohn
    Member

    Yes the bore in the bearing is too large so I'm going to sleave the collar, I have a machine shop and it sure does come in Handy:D Do you have a better ideas to do it?

    Thanks John
     
  14. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,406

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    I've seen folks bush the T/O bearing, but I think sleeving the collar is the better approach - that way when you have to replace your T/O bearing, you just get an off-the-shelf T/O bearing.

    The Dwight Bond setup uses the sleeved collar.
     
  15. Snarl
    Joined: Feb 16, 2007
    Posts: 1,639

    Snarl
    Member

    Since you have that option handy, then that's what i would do also. A Ford collar won't work. You could try looking for a different throwout bearing, but I would suspect there isn't one or the "kit" that Ernie mentions would be using it instead of a sleeve.
     
  16. El Gordo
    Joined: Aug 20, 2007
    Posts: 432

    El Gordo
    Member

    I've heard that there is so much T5 info out there that some of it is wrong.

    Now I have proof.

    My T5 That I'm installing is a 1352 - 156
    that I've seen the ratio listed as 2 different numbers.
    Here is a cut out of the BritishV8 site
    http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Borg-Warner-T5-ID-Tags.htm


    <table class="body-estext" border="1" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr bgcolor="#fffaec"><td>1352-153 </td><td>Never Released </td><td>
    </td><td>
    </td><td>
    </td><td>
    </td><td>
    </td><td>
    </td><td>
    </td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#d9eeeb"><td>1352-154 </td><td>Ford 1987 Mustang/Capri 2.3 L EFI WC </td><td>X</td><td>3.70</td><td>3.97</td><td>2.34</td><td>1.48</td><td>1.00</td><td>0.85</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#fffaec"><td>1352-155 </td><td>Ford 1987 T-Bird Cougar 2.3 L4 Turbo WC</td><td>X</td><td>3.70</td><td>3.97</td><td>2.34</td><td>1.48</td><td>1.00</td><td>0.79</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#d9eeeb"><td>1352-156 </td><td>GMC 1986 V6 F Cars 2.8 V6 LB8 </td><td>P</td><td>3.76</td><td>4.03</td><td>2.37</td><td>1.49</td><td>1.00</td><td>0.76</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#fffaec"><td>1352-157 </td><td>GMC 1986 V8 F Cars .9 V8 LG4-LG9 </td><td>U</td><td>2.76</td><td>2.95</td><td>1.94</td><td>1.34</td><td>1.00</td><td>0.63</td></tr> <tr bgcolor="#d9eeeb"><td>1352-158 </td><td>GMC 1986 L4 F Cars 2.5 L4-L09 </td><td>R</td><td>3.76</td><td>3.78</td><td>2.18</td><td>1.42</td><td>1.00</td><td>0.72</td></tr></tbody></table>

    Note the ratio for the 156...
    4.03 first, 2.37 second,1.49 third, and 0.76 OD

    Yet on this thread post #84 MoeFuzzs' list says that a 156's ratio is

    3.50 2.14 1.36 1.00 0.78


    So for all the people emailing Ernie and the other T5 Gurus with the same question ......

    I have a T5 - what gear ratio is it???

    I present.....

    T5 rear ratio identifying for Dummies

    ( Because if it worked for me, it must be )


    Have your T5 out on the floor or work bench
    Install your shifter
    Wrap masking tape around the input and output shafts splines
    With a marker - make a line along one spline on each shaft
    With the shifter in neutral line up marks to Top Dead Center
    Shift into first **NOTE** at this point avoid making engine noises if
    your wife is present :rolleyes:
    Turn the input shaft one revolution - counting how many times the output
    shaft mark turns. write down that number
    mine was 3 1/2 -- don't worry about getting it exact
    Shift into neutral and line up shafts again
    Repeat for gears 2,3 and 5 (4th is always one )

    Mine was 1st - 3.5
    2nd - 2.25ish
    3rd - 1.50ish
    5th - .75

    Lines up very close with 3.50 2.14 1.36 1.00 0.78 Eh?

    And now I know for sure what my ratio is and I didn't have to pm Ernie:D

    .
     
  17. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,406

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    Most of the incorrect info is inferred. By that I mean that I have yet to find a complete, accurate, validated, one-stop tech source. Consequently, there's lots of partial lists and partial info out there. Then there's guys that want to get you to get a T5 based on application (get a V6 S10 - it has the good ratios) and the bottom line is you can only narrow things down by application, but not quite pinpoint (often).

    I don't care for that listing myself - I've got a large listing I've converted into Excel format and I update it as I get validated info. The trouble with "validated" info is these trannys are 20 years old & may have been rebuilt with different gearsets, etc.



    Most of the lists are accurate - there are the few discrepancies here and there. You can certainly check it out that way though.
     
  18. Snarl
    Joined: Feb 16, 2007
    Posts: 1,639

    Snarl
    Member

    Lists are a starting point. If first gear is important to your project, then take the time to count the rotations BEFORE you buy it. Just that simple...
     
  19. I just picked up a T-5 for my project. Here are the numbers on the tag.
    15677588--What is this number refer to?
    1352-216--I have determined from the source here that in came in a GM 1993 MY 2.2L S-Truck WC --What does MY stand for and S-Truck?
    BO142--What's this?
    55336 What's this?
    I am guessing this is a 4 cyl trans. Is this a decent trans to use or should I look for another one?
    Any help would be appreciated. Dale
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2009
  20. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,406

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    The only number that matters in all of that is the 1352-216. It does indeed decode to a '93 S10 (4-cyl, 6-cyl is irrelevant). I don't have a lot of data for that other than it's listed as WC which means it likely has the Ford bolt pattern and while I'm not certain on the gear ratios, I'd lean towards it having the 3.76 gearset.

    It will almost certainly have an electronic speedo.

    As for whether or not it's a decent trans to use depends on what you're trying to do with it...
     
  21. El Gordo
    Joined: Aug 20, 2007
    Posts: 432

    El Gordo
    Member

    Hey Ernie,
    Here's one I haven't seen asked yet....

    My T5 is a '88 Camaro - Is the driveshaft yoke from a '80's S10 the same as the Camaros'?

    Reason I ask is the local Pick-a-part has dozens of S10s but no Camaros, Because there is a guy locally who buys up all the dead Camaros and charges big for parts.

    I could probably haul my T5 to the junkyard and keep taking driveshafts out to my truck until I find one that fits.

    If they are the same then it's $5 for an S10 yoke and $50 for a Camaro.


    .
     
  22. Ernie, Thanks for the reply. I am going to use it behind a 371 Olds hopefully. Will it stand up to that abuse. It does have the electronic speedo deal. Is there a switch over to get the mechanical speedo working without changing the tailpiece? I am not going to drag race this car but want it to be stout enough to have some fun. Here are the pics. What bolt pattern do I have. I have a Mac's bellhousing from flathead to Muncie and it's off by a mile. Thanks Dale
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 15, 2009
  23. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,406

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    I think so, but not 100% certain. Snarl will know.

    PM Snarl - he's pretty smart on the electronic speedos - I've never messed with them myself. I have seen the inliners.org tech writeup on switching the tailshaft and shimming a gear onto the shaft, but never done anything like that myself.


    OK - you've got a WC Ford pattern tranny there. That's what is supposed to be in a '93 S10, however, it seems to have been a transition year as I've had at least two folks tell me they had NWC GM units that decode to '93 S10.

    Put it in 1st gear and spin the output shaft - count how many times the input shaft spins - it should be right at 4 or 3-3/4. 4 = 4.03 gearset and 3-3/4 = 3.76 gearset.
     
  24. Thanks man, I did not check the gear ratio except for the chart that told me what I had. The ratios seem ok by the chart. My question is? Is this a tranny that will work ok behind my 371 Olds if I can find the right combo to hook it up or do I need to find one out of a camaro that handled a V8?
     
  25. Flat Ernie
    Joined: Jun 5, 2002
    Posts: 8,406

    Flat Ernie
    Tech Editor

    Dale,

    It should be OK. If you're going to beat on it, start looking for a Mustang T5 - it should bolt in wherever you adapt that one to. The camaro one will have a different pattern altogether.
     
  26. fonti
    Joined: Nov 28, 2006
    Posts: 487

    fonti
    Member

    thanks a lot!!! H.A.M.B. is super...
     
  27. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 4,130

    Truckedup
    Member

    Camaro t-5's at least the late 80's type I worked on,use a Saginaw/TH-350 type output yoke,27 spline I believe.
     
  28. Snarl
    Joined: Feb 16, 2007
    Posts: 1,639

    Snarl
    Member

    All GM T5's use the same tailshaft splines. 27 sounds right to me.


    To use an electronic sender with a cable driven speedo, you would either have to convert the T5 by switching out the tailhousing, etc... which has been discussed before, so do a search. OR...
    The easy way, but possibly more expensive depending on what it would cost to find the correct tailhousing, is to but a converter box made by Cable X. It is $319.00 plus shipping. It will convert the electronic signal to a mechanical one. I'm assuming it has a servo drive inside the box to do this. I'd like to get my hands on one and take it apart...
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2009
  29. Snarl
    Joined: Feb 16, 2007
    Posts: 1,639

    Snarl
    Member

    Something else that needs to be mentioned and rarely does, is that there is a snap ring on the tailshaft, about 2/3 of the way down the splines.
    When fitting for a driveshaft, you need to make sure you don't bottom out on this snap ring. Better yet is to remove it as it serves no meaningful purpose anyway.
     
  30. TimDavis
    Joined: Sep 4, 2005
    Posts: 718

    TimDavis
    Member

    With all of the discussion about mechanical vs. electronic speedos -what about if we are using an electronic speedometer? Like a new Stewart Warner electronic speedo? With a trans with mechanical output, we thread a sensor onto it, and run the wires to the speedo....can we use the GM sender to power a SW guage?
     

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