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Synthetic oil in older engines

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 71buickfreak, Apr 30, 2011.

  1. 71buickfreak
    Joined: Sep 26, 2006
    Posts: 609

    71buickfreak
    Member
    from Oklahoma

    Z-man: Sorry, but you are incorrect. After break-in, the higher levels of zinc and phosphorous are not needed, standard levels currently found in motor oil is sufficient at that point. You are incorrect. Royal Purple and other high-performance synthetics contain the necessary ZDDP. This thread is not about ZDDP anyway, it is about synthetic vs conventional oil, both of which are held to the same standards in terms of additives, so your comment makes no sense. All cam manufacturers suggest using a high ZDDP oil or additive for flat-tappet camshaft break-in, after the initial break-in and 500 miles, you can switch to a high-performance oil.

    Again, this thread is not about zddp. Quality synthetics formulated for older engines are better than conventional oil. Don't make blanket statements and lump Wal-mart brand oil in with the good stuff.
     
  2. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 2,307

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    This statement is correct- the problem is you're not understanding or researching the math. In that statement, the phosphorous levels are expressed as percent- while on most charts like the one from Mobil 1 I posted, are expressed as PPM (parts per million)- .14% = 1400PPM, .20% = 2000PPM. The Mobil 1 15W-50 shows 1200 PPM phosphorus- below the level cited by GM as beginning to be too much. Most oils with proper ZDDP levels for performance flat-tappet use range around 1200-1600PPM (ZDDP, not zinc or phosphorus, but the whole ZDDP package), and less than 2000PPM. It further clouds the issue when folks talk about "zinc" levels, meaning ZDDP, and sometimes zinc and phosphorus levels are expressed separately, sometimes not, and the numbers aren't directly interchangeable.
    And you might get away with an 800PPM shelf oil with a very mild stock cam with limp springs that's already broken in, but for use with some decent hot rod stuff, you do indeed need the classic levels of ZDDP, somewhere around 1200 PPM, as in VR-1, Mobil 1 15W-50, Brad Penn, etc.- but not TOO much
     
  3. moefuzz
    Joined: Jul 16, 2005
    Posts: 4,950

    moefuzz
    Member

    -Vintage V8 with 162,000 miles on it when 'found'. (Well maintained by previous owner).
    -Installed an underdash Vacuum gauge which read 19 inches vacuum on fresh regular oil
    -Vacuum dropped down to about 17" when the regular oil had 1000 miles on it.
    -After many oil changes, the above readings remained the same.

    -At about 240,000 miles switched to Full synthetic.
    -Vacuum gauge reads 20 with fresh synth oil
    -Vacuum drops gradually to around 18 after 3000 miles on synth oil

    Conclusion, Synth oil builds more vacuum/hp/mileage and upholds better vacuum for 3 times as long as regular oil.

    -Tore engine apart at 340,000 miles (timing chain stretched, many backfires/broken rings//bent valves).
    -Cylinder walls in generally very good condition, engine internals very clean with little or no sludge
    -Overbore and re-ringed engine and placed engine in service.
    -Broke in on regular oil
    -@ about 10,000 miles switched to Full synthetic.
    -Engine now has about 420,000 (340,000 + 80,000) and is still going strong.
    -Engine vacuum with fresh synth oil reads 21" and drops to 19" after 3000 miles.


    -Love synthetics,
    Appreciate the extra Vacuum,
    Appreciate better ring sealing,
    Appreciate extra few hp from better ring sealing,
    Appreciate doing 1 oil change every 10,000 miles versus 3 oil changes with regular oil.


    3 regular oil changes in 10,000 miles = ~ $69 (5 quarts Valvoline @ $17 x3 changes= $51+ $18 for 3 long life filters)
    1 Synthetic oil change in 10,000 miles = ~ $47 (5 quarts synth @ $35 plus 2 oil filters @ $6 each)

    Conclusion
    Saving major $$$ on oil/filters/changes as well as garnering better fuel economy,
    Engine life/maintenance costs are down due to longer lasting engine/rings/components.

    I Have used Synthetics since 1985 in every one of my daily drivers and I put about 60,000 miles per year on the primary/daily driver.


    -In 60,000 miles (year) I can either spend $414 on regular oil/changes
    or spend $282 on synthetic oil with 2 long life filters per oil change.




    just my 2 cents



    .
     
  4. moefuzz
    Joined: Jul 16, 2005
    Posts: 4,950

    moefuzz
    Member

    From one manufacturers website regarding their synthetic oils:

    http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/full-synthetic-motor-oil/


    1. How does Valvoline's SynPower formula protect against wear?
      SynPower full synthetic motor oil is formulated with a balance of high quality ingredients such as detergents, dispersants, antioxidants, friction modifiers, anti-wear additives and premium base oils that work together to provide exceptional protection against engine stress and wear.

      Valvoline's proprietary formulation includes special anti-wear chemistry. Valvoline's low impact
      ZDDP allows phosphorus in the anti-wear additive to stay in the oil longer than other leading synthetic motor oils. Phosphorous bonds to metal parts in the engine to form a "sacrificial" layer that helps protect against friction and metal wear in the engine.

      SynPower uses premium detergents and dispersants that protect against deposits and sludge to keep engines clean. SynPower's premium full synthetic base oils and additives hold up to extreme temperatures to provide increased protection for your engine.


    1. Is it ok to switch back and forth between regular and synthetic motor oil? I heard this causes leaks? Is this true?
      Switching between synthetic and conventional oil does not cause problems. Because the oils are compatible, you can switch back and forth as often as you like.
    2. Can you mix different types of motor oil? For example, synthetic and synthetic blend or regular and synthetic? Is this going to cause problems?
      Mixing synthetic and conventional oils will not cause any problems. The oils are compatible with each other.


    1. Does using synthetic oil cause my car to use more oil?
      No. Synthetic oils do not increase oil consumption.
    2. Does using synthetic oil damage engine seals?
      No. Synthetic oils are perfectly safe for all rubber seals.
    3. I heard that synthetic oil is too thin for use in an older car and creates blow-by and burn-off. Is this true?
      This is only true if the blow-by problem exists prior to using a synthetic oil. If you have a leaking or blow-by problem, synthetic oils can make the issue worse, but they do not cause it to happen.



    .
     
  5. 71buickfreak
    Joined: Sep 26, 2006
    Posts: 609

    71buickfreak
    Member
    from Oklahoma

    Moefuzz- Thanks for finding and posting that.
     
  6. zman
    Joined: Apr 2, 2001
    Posts: 16,731

    zman
    Member
    from Garner, NC

    No sir you are wrong, yes it does not need higher levels, it needs the correct levels... see below.

    Yep, even after break in, flat tappet engines need the proper amount of ZDDP. period.


    Yep.... like when I mentioned earlier... rope seals... most all of them seep a little, with synthetic they tend to leak.... do not put it in an already high mileage engine....

    I use off the shelf regular synthetics where it is proper. Though I actually tend to prefer Lubrications Engineering oils to all others. A synthetic formulated for older engines with flat tappets would have the proper amount of ZDDP. Making a blanket statement that synthetics are better than petroleum based oils is a silly thing to say when talking about old engines, there is more to it than just the base oil formulation.
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2011
  7. Undercover Customs
    Joined: Mar 24, 2009
    Posts: 362

    Undercover Customs
    Member

    Back in 97 I built a 307 for a daily driver. I was driving about a 1000 miles a week and after about 5000 miles I switched to synthetic because I had heard of two different people that had had the same experience as above. They had both hit something which caused a hole in the oil pan and drove many miles w/o any oil. fixed the hole and had no issues with the engine after. My fuel mileage was better by about a mile per gallon and after about 12000 miles it did leak a bit through the front and rear main seals. After 2 years of driving it I had no issues with it other than the minor leaks. INMO, the longevity of the more modern engines is more due to an average lower highway rpm than roller cams.
     
  8. jbrittonjr
    Joined: Sep 10, 2009
    Posts: 105

    jbrittonjr
    Member

    For what it's worth I like synthetic oils.
    In the late 70's as a teen I started using Mobil 1 in my aircooled VW engines.
    When I would tear down an engine I could see & measure that the bearing surfaces and cylinder walls were in excellent shape.
    I have since used Mobil 1 in water cooled VW engines, the 2 liter B13 Sentra engines, a few Chevy 350/ 383 engines, two Ford 226H engines, a Farmall Cub 4 cylinder engine, one Ford flathead 8 cylinder engine and the Subaru 2.5 liter turbo engine in my daily driver. I have had the Subaru engine oil analyzed by Blackstone Labs since Fall 2006 and have had no oil related problems to date. I have also used Redline synthetic gear oil in the transaxles / transmissions and rear ends with no apparent problems.
     
  9. dragsta
    Joined: Apr 11, 2010
    Posts: 589

    dragsta
    BANNED

    #1. the problem with engine wear isn't an issue with syn vs non, it's a factor of how often the oil is changed because it's the buildup of particulates in the oil that causes most the engine wear. buying cheap oil and changing it more often is better than letting dirty, synthetic circulate for 5K miles.

    #2. my 235 always had non-synthetic oil and when rebuilt, the cam, crank et were all still within specs even with my toilet paper oil filter in the canister. :eek: i've since upgraded to using a cut-down roll of paper towels. works great... :D

    #3. how do you know that they actually do put synthetic oil in those expensive bottles? :confused: if they can scam, they will and since ain't nobody checking, i'll bet that most of that "synthetic" oil, isn't. :cool:
     
  10. 71buickfreak
    Joined: Sep 26, 2006
    Posts: 609

    71buickfreak
    Member
    from Oklahoma

    ZMan- some of the things you are saying are exactly what I am saying, I'm not sure why I'm getting the arguement. Most hi-performance engine oils, synthetic or conventional have the necessary ZDDP to protect a flat tappet camshaft engine, just not during break-in. We are saying the same thing- buy the oil that best suits your application.

    Switching to synthetic for an older engine is not an issue, it will undoubtedly extend its life. It may expose issues that the engine already had, such as worn rings, guides, etc, but the bearings will appreciate the help. I have had several personal experiences, but have kept anecdotal experiences out of the equation. As a rule, I ALWAYS switch any new project that comes into my shop to synthetic, it cleans them out and provides better lubrication for the bearings. I have had clunky engines clean up and smooth out after a simple oil change. I haven't had an engine start dumping oil out of a seal or any other orifice by switching to synthetic, and some of these cars haven't been run is 30-40 years.
     
  11. 71buickfreak
    Joined: Sep 26, 2006
    Posts: 609

    71buickfreak
    Member
    from Oklahoma

    See above. This is a nice dialogue. And it hasn't gotten nasty, which is nice.
     
  12. 71buickfreak
    Joined: Sep 26, 2006
    Posts: 609

    71buickfreak
    Member
    from Oklahoma

    I will go ahead and give you guys one of my personal stories-
    1980 John Deere 111 riding mower. I got it from a buddy after his father in law passed it along to him. It barely ran, and when it did, it would stall out on anything taller than 4 inches. I changed the oil to some cheap wal-mart synthetic, no flushing, no tune up, just the oil and I fired it up. after a couple of minutes, it ran like a top. I continued to use this mower for 5 years until I bought more land and went a got a new JD a couple of years ago. I sold the mower to a guy for $300, and he is still using it. Before I changed the oil, it smoked like a chimney. After, it ran smooth and didn't smoke near as much.
     
  13. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 2,307

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    I think the "arguement' is because what you are saying NOW-

    "
    Most hi-performance engine oils, synthetic or conventional have the necessary ZDDP to protect a flat tappet camshaft engine, just not during break-in. We are saying the same thing- buy the oil that best suits your application."

    -is not what you were saying earlier (above). Your revised story is correct
     
  14. tubman
    Joined: May 16, 2007
    Posts: 6,916

    tubman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I have had two experiences with this. In 1980, I bought a new Chevrolet Monza (yeah, I know). I ran it on regular oil for the first 5000 miles and then changed to 10W-40 Mobil 1. Shortly thereafter, it developed a lifter "tick". I ran the fix-it additives through it with no help. Finally went back to regular 10-30 and the "tick" went away.

    Last summer, I needed to do an oil change on my original 87,000 mile '51 Ford club coupe. I knew I had 6 quarts of Mobil 1 15-50 on the shelf left over from a racing project. I checked and found that it had more than enough ZDDP for my purposes, so I used it. (BTW, I have been using detergent oil in his car since I bought it 25 years ago). No problems so far and no leaks.:)

    Do you suppose Mobil has upgraded Mobil 1 in the last 30 years?:confused:
     
  15. 71buickfreak
    Joined: Sep 26, 2006
    Posts: 609

    71buickfreak
    Member
    from Oklahoma

    I realize the error and how it got lost in translation. I was referring to the extra ZDDP, such as in break-in oils and additives.
     
  16. Normbc9
    Joined: Apr 20, 2011
    Posts: 1,121

    Normbc9
    Member

    I'm driving a 43 year old family car with a six banger i n it and it runs fine. I just change the oil every month regardless of how many miles I may put on it. Oil is always cheaper than shop labor rates. I did change to Valvoline Synthetic Blend four years ago and it is still running fine. Why did I change? My Kendall supplier went out of business and I was too cheap to drive to Sacramento for more of that oil. The cost differential by the case was negligible. There is 166,800 miles on the engine and it has never been torn down. I do tune it annually.
    Normbc
     
  17. captainjunk#2
    Joined: Mar 13, 2008
    Posts: 4,420

    captainjunk#2
    Member

    this is a good thread , ive heard all the old wives tails about using synthetic oil in older engines and not to do it , we use it in the power industry for industrial applications , ive always heard it is a better oil than petro based oil , and ive always wanted to try running some to see if the results are true ,
     
  18. MeanGene427
    Joined: Dec 15, 2010
    Posts: 2,307

    MeanGene427
    Member
    from Napa

    LOL my ex-GF used to actually say to me-more than once- "That's not what I meant, just what I said!!!" :rolleyes: Yeah, she was a big-hootered blonde :p

    Hey Norm, are you going to the swap meet at American River College in Sac tomorrow? I'm loading up right now- sand F350 dually with Ford stuff, FordFE.com shirt
     
  19. 71buickfreak
    Joined: Sep 26, 2006
    Posts: 609

    71buickfreak
    Member
    from Oklahoma

    Yeah, well, big boobies let you get away with a lot things. :eek:
     
  20. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 4,661

    Truckedup
    Member

    I would run synthetic in a vintage engine if it had a full flow oil filter that will accept a quality modern spin on filter.But any type of oil has got to be better than 60 years ago.
     
  21. lakeroadster
    Joined: Nov 6, 2008
    Posts: 604

    lakeroadster
    Member
    from *

    All oils, dino and synthetics, are not created equal. Just because it used to work doesn't means it will continue to work. Regulations and formulations change. Check out this link http://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/showthread.php?t=381780

    I have been using Mobil 1 10W-30 on my (3) flat tappet cam SBC V-8's for the last 10 years with no problems. However I recently changed to Mobil 1 15W-50 to ensure that I was getting enough additive for the flat tappet cams.
     
  22. dragsta
    Joined: Apr 11, 2010
    Posts: 589

    dragsta
    BANNED

    oil always comes out 'dirty'. that dirt is circulating for 10K miles in your engine. i really don't care because it's your motor, but i much prefer to change my oil more often. i've got 50K miles on my harley with cheap oil and it runs strong. i change it at about 1,600 miles..... synthetic oil is a billion dollar scam.
     
  23. Back in the 90's I used to build production machinery for packaging plants. One of the big changes was goiong to the "F" style oil containers we take for granted today.

    Here are two observations:
    Remember the old cardboard cans and the tin lids? Well, in the packaging plants they recieve the cans on tall pallets about 16-18 ft tall. You can tell the name brand without looking, yellow (pennsoil), gold (valvoline)and so on. So, the pallet is lifted and the cans run across the ceiling on a conveyor and drop down into the filler and crimper, again, you see the brands going by. It is not uncommon to see a brand change go by at full speed, yellow for awhile then gold and so on. When the chemist was questioned they confirmed it, API spec oil doesn't care what the label or can says.

    The second is from a couple different chemists in different plants. This is when synthetic oil is coming into the market place. I was told that in order for a batch of oil to pass API certification testing the batch must pass minimums in 3 out of 10 attempts. Conventional oils typically pass 5 of 10, the new synthetics pass every attempt. From what I understand, the base stock of the synthetics, ester or others is just that much better.

    I can tell you this from building and running a couple of 25 hour endurance cars, synthetic(s) are the only lube going into my equipment.

    J
     
  24. 71buickfreak
    Joined: Sep 26, 2006
    Posts: 609

    71buickfreak
    Member
    from Oklahoma

    All new cars are suggested to run the oil for considerably longer than the traditional 3 mo/3,000 mile time frame. This is due in part because of the oil. I don't run oil that long in my performance cars, but my DD, your dang right I do. 7k on synthetic is like 3k on conventional. I change the filter at 3.5k.
     
  25. Weasel
    Joined: Dec 30, 2007
    Posts: 6,698

    Weasel
    Member

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