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Technical Students 59f100 and timing issues

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by anthony myrick, Aug 8, 2020.

  1. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,147

    anthony myrick
    Member

    F3415F12-CA63-427E-9342-13823E8FBE9E.jpeg 7B031DAD-5DAB-4164-923C-F40F945506A7.jpeg

    one of my students( well I guess former as he graduated a couple years ago) dropped of his f100 project. I guess ya never stop teaching.
    anyway, he didn’t listen to his wise instructor and installed a 351w that he built himself. I guess I would have done the same thing as my appreciation for 6cyl engines was very low at that same age.
    He dropped it off at the house due to frustration getting it to fire. The engine is ,030 over flat top with a thumper cam. The block is a 78 and the heads are early 69s.
    He had the distributor in the wrong location when it arrived. We did a quick check and set the distributor in the correct spot.
    The firing order is correct and the cam specified the 351 firing order.
    We have spark, new stock points dizzy.
    Just turns over hard like it’s out of time.
    kid swears that the timing chain is correct. This engine just doesn’t want to fire off.
    I only messed with it for about an hour and am charging the battery.
    My other question is his combination of parts. I have built 302s and 351s but not this combo of parts. . I know there is a deck height issue.
    These early 351 heads have adjustable rockers.
    What issues will this combo cause if any?
     
  2. 57 300
    Joined: Jan 1, 2010
    Posts: 256

    57 300
    Member
    from Mn.

    "The firing order is correct and the cam specified the 351 firing order."....recheck.Also is the damper good and not spun on itself?
     
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  3. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,147

    anthony myrick
    Member

    I asked him if the crank gear had multiple key ways. He said he couldn’t remember.
    I may pull the timing cover and start from there.
    I asked the other question because I didn’t want something simple or a miss matched part cause a wiped out cam.
    He did back off on the rocker arms like I told him.
     
  4. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,147

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Will pull the bottom pulley off and check.
    Need to make sure its in the key way.
     

  5. 51504bat
    Joined: May 22, 2010
    Posts: 2,148

    51504bat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Kudo's to you for helping your former student out of a jam. I can't count all the times older more knowledgeable guys bailed my know it all teenage/early 20's butt out of a mess I created. Of course I'm still making a mess of things but that's a different story.:cool:
     
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  6. sdluck
    Joined: Sep 19, 2006
    Posts: 2,524

    sdluck
    Member

    2 firing orders for 351
     
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  7. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,147

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Yep. He says he used what was specified by the cam. I’m going to check comp cams web site to make sure. If it’s correct I will probably remove the timing cover and make sure it’s correct. This stuff is too simple for have a major issue.
     
  8. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 4,419

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    Nope. 351 W firing order never changed.
     
  9. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,147

    anthony myrick
    Member

    He may mean there are 2 SBF firing orders.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  10. sdluck
    Joined: Sep 19, 2006
    Posts: 2,524

    sdluck
    Member

  11. sdluck
    Joined: Sep 19, 2006
    Posts: 2,524

    sdluck
    Member

    The firing order changed from 15426378 to 13726548 because the camshaft dictates the firing order
     
  12. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,147

    anthony myrick
    Member

    The engine did hit but spits back up through the carb.
    I think we just need to start over on the timing and recheck everything to illuminate all possibilities.
     
  13. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 4,419

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    One thing to check that had me stumped on mine was the timing mark. Ford used two different marks on the later blocks, one for the magnetic pickup and another for actual use with a light. That nice big line across the balancer is for the magnetic pickup, and is about 2 plugs off on the firing order. Mine would hit too, and spit out both the exhaust and intake, like a couple of wires being switched. The actual timing marks are lightly stamped, if covered in paint or grease you may never see them. I had to sand my balancer off before I found them, they are degreed from 30* BTDC to TDC to 30* ATDC IIRC. I tried both 302 firing orders, advanced and retarded the timing, even a different distributor before I realized that nice big line wasn't what I needed, I needed that faint stamped line.
     
  14. Several years back I had a friend with same sounding issue. I went to his house and watched him set it up on #1 and then run the firing order on the cap. It all checked out fine until I noticed he was going the wrong direction around the cap. Honest mistake by a guy trying hard. I'm sure this is not your issue but these things do happen.
     
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  15. fordor41
    Joined: Jul 2, 2008
    Posts: 921

    fordor41
    Member

    bring engine to TDC of #1 comp, drop dist in so rotor is pointing to #1 on the cap. If it doesn't change I'd move to crank/cam timing
     
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  16. This is how I do it and never look at the damper marks till it's running.
     
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  17. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,147

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Could be part of it.
    The kid doesn’t have the correct pointer.
    The dampner has the groove.
    I bet it’s a couple teeth off if the timing chain is correct.
    I may have an extra pointer.
    Will clean off the dampner tomorrow.
     
  18. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,147

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Same here. I didn’t assemble this one. Something is off.
     
  19. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 27,516

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You might want to pull the valve covers off and crank it though two rotations by hand to watch the rockers to make sure that the cam timing is correct. You may not have to go the whole two, just enough to make sure that a few cylinders in the firing order are indeed working with that firing order. FiringOrder351-400 (2).jpg
    That counter clockwise rotation might be confusing if you are used to working on Chevys or engines that wire clockwise. When I put the 283 in my T bucket the car I did the most tune ups on was the 69 Olds Cutlass I had and I wired it for a 350R rather than a 283.
     
  20. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,147

    anthony myrick
    Member

    That’s the plan. I have the passenger side valve cover off. Cycled it a couple turns.
    I didn’t have a lot of time with it today.
    Should have a chance tomorrow.
    My other concern was his 78 block with 69 heads. Want to make sure he doesn’t kill the cam. Don’t know if the deck height differences that ford had on the 351s would affect anything I had him back off the rocker adjustment when he was first cranking it.
     
  21. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 27,516

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Can't help you there, My Ford engine knowledge ends with Y blocks and it most likely will stay that way.
     
  22. Anthony, if cam chain timing is off would that show up in a Cranking speed compression even on a fresh motor? Would seem to me early opening of valve would show very low number and a late opening would be much higher that you'd expect. Could be a very easy first step prior to deciding to take things apart. What's your thoughts?
     
  23. You can test the valve spring seat pressure with a hand gauge while the heads are on the motor to answer that question. The other thing to check is Rocker arm profile to valve stem. Personally I don't think there's an issue there. If seat pressure is good and rocker geometry is off get a set of Smith Brothers pushrods made to correct it with. Fixed rocker stands are a Blister and adjustable ones still need to be looked at at adjusted height. This mix-n-Match stuff can be a P.I.A. for sure.
     
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  24. F-ONE
    Joined: Mar 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,273

    F-ONE
    Member
    from Alabama

    Anthony,
    These engines seem to be very sensitive to distributor location and distributor condition. I guess all engines are. My point is, I have ran several times around the tree chasing my tail assuming the distributor was in good working order and in the right location.
    When installing the SBF distributor the oil pump drive will keep it off the sweet spot. To get it in the right spot you have to hold the distributor up, bump the engine over, let the oil pump drive mesh on the bottom of the shaft, drop it down and let the distributor gear mesh with the cam gear. ( I'm going to speak Southern to my friend) Anthony when you put in the distributor... You have to hold your mouth right!
    It may take several tries of getting the oil drive and cam gear to all mesh together. Make sure it's all meshing together where the cam gear, distributor gear, oil pump drive and pointer are all in the right spot.

    Another thing is making sure the distributor is a known/confirmed working unit. I've been around and around with these, grabbed another distributor, dropped it in as above, barely turn the key and it starts and runs like a million dollars.
    I had assumed my distributor was good.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
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  25. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,147

    anthony myrick
    Member

    The distributor is an fresh reman.
    We are getting a strong spark.
    The oil pump drive is an issue. He left the keeper for it out during the build. I did the same thing on my first SBF build
    That means ya have to be extra careful removing it. I’m going to confirm TDC first and watch to see how the next valve opens to confirm the timing chain is correct and go from there.
    He first tried starting this engine with a used MSD distributor. Not one of the stand alone units He doesn’t have the box for it. So this is where his frustration started.
    So I’m going to just start over co firming timing and do from there.
    Another thing I got to find out is what pierce he used. Now I’m concerned that he used the correct balance dampner and flywheel.
     
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  26. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,147

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Yep. I think all the 351 push rods are the same length. As far as valve spring pressures, we don’t have a way to measure it.
    He is running the stock springs with this thumper cam. I’m going to have him screen shot me the cam specs. Then I will school him on why the spring needs to match the cam.
    Going to straighten out the timing and confirm correct balance on the dampner and flywheel.
    Then I will show him how to set up his fuel delivery and repair the wiring. It looks about as bad as mine would have been at his age without any input from a wiser source.
    But he has done ok so far on his own.
     
  27. No oil pump drive shaft, now that's something you only forget to do once. Good luck with that. No better lesson than the ones we learn from our mistakes.
     
  28. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 4,419

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    Stock valve springs might be softer on the cam during break in.
     
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  29. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 6,147

    anthony myrick
    Member

    The keeper or retainer for a better term. The oil pump drive tries to come out with the distributor
    Makes moving it difficult.
     
  30. Sorry, my mind got ahead of my finger. I left off the word keeper. At this point all you can do is hope Luck is on your side. As you know the fix is to drop the pan. If your going to have the front cover off ya might just have him go ahead and drop the pan and do the right thing. Looks like the Truck still has the beam axle so shouldn't be a to tough to do.
     
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