The Jalopy Journal
Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 60 Plymouth, May 3, 2012.
Even with headlights this would be cool. So long as you didn't have to turn!
By weslake at 2007-05-20
Frank Costin was the master of aerodynamic shapes. Did you know he had no idea what his designs looked like until after they were built True, they were all done by math. He would hand over pages and pages of figures to metal shapers describing the shapes and they would build from that.
Costin's cars are absolute things of beauty. I was at the VSCC Spring Start event at Silverstone race track recently and we had the opportunity to see a number of Costin bodied cars (as wellas a ton of stuff for the Cyclecar thread - shame I left my camera at home really ). I've always had a thing for the Lotus XI.
Rick, I didn't know it was a recreation, I always assumed it was a full restoration. There's some great footage of the two Healeys return to Bonneville on youtube:
I think the original footage is around somwhere too.
James - I thought the same thing a while ago! The trouble is that the speedster GRP replica bodies are all pretty high end stuff, and even the cheapest go for thousands.
Incidentally, there's a cracking kit car body available for a very low price called the Sammio Spyder, based on a Triumph chassis/floorpan/bulkhead:
Not sure about commuting in the UK in a roadster though! I've thought about the half cockpit design (I REALLY like head/cockpit fairings!) but I'd like to be able to regularly put two people in it, and I'm not sure SWMBO would like being stuck out in the rain.
The powerplant I'm interested in using is a Geo metro 1.0l engine, with LPG (around 50-60% the price of petrol in the UK). LPG has a lower calorific value than petrol so costs work out about 70% that of petrol (In the UK, diesel is more expensive than petrol by about the same amount it is more efficient - great).
I take your point about weight, but for the type of driving most of my miles are done (sitting at 70mph on long straight roads) I think aero has the biggest advantage. Still, I think I can get the car lighter than the original Herald body (I'm aiming for 700kg, or 1550lbs kerb), so it isn't going to weigh tons. It's funny the things that add weight to a car, having doors instead of a hop-in type of body makes a difference. I haven't made a decision on that yet . . .
Another idea I am looking at is a reverse trike design, where weight is the primary consideration, and aerodynamics suffer a bit (open wheel design, maybe need to put some Frank Lockhart Stutz style wheel spats on it). Other problems are custom engine adaptors and having to invert and flip a VW transaxle, and a really irritating shifter mechanism. Plus with all that done, the car has to pass a test and pay road tax. BUT it would satisfy my fenderless itch.
sgtlethargic - I've seen that template a whole bunch, if you look carefully at my drawing you can see it some more, the top of the roof matches that 22 degree tail, same with the sides of the body in plan view. I have Hucho's book on aerodynamics, it's got some greatinfo in it for road going vehicles.
Firingorder - Much as the idea of cutting my commute to six minutes and being able to park under a HGV appeals I think there are practical issues associated with driving somthing like that on the road . Can you imagine trying to reach up to the person in the toll booth from that!
Sticking with the Herald, how about a chopped and smoothed out early Bond Equipe? Seems to me they did half the job for you. You could aero one up pretty well.
We considered a 356 coupe and not a Speedster, but bodies for those are even more expensive. Not that light either, I´m led to beleive.
Chopped and sectioned Bond, with a new nose. Might not be too hard to do. There´s a lot of flat metal on a Herald. No BIVA bullshit to deal with either.
Very interesting. Would that be carbed or EFI propane?
My understanding (which isn't much) is that weight reduction will payoff for stop-and-go driving (makes sense due to acceleration) and aerodynamic drag reduction will payoff for highway driving. Next, but not least, is safety.
Cool. I may have to invest in that book, sooner or later. Is the Aerodynamic Streamlining Template from the book?
James that photochop is fantastic! That is somthing I'd never have considered, I love it! For good aero, the worst 'fastback' angle is around the 30 degrees mark, the optimum is 12-15 from what I remember. As you increase the angle from 12 degrees, you start to get 'wingtip vortices' peeling off the sides of the car, increasing drag. This problem gets more pronounced until 30-33 degrees, when airflow seperates entirely. This looses the vortices, and drag drops to what it would be for a hatchback (anything from 33 to 90 degress is about the same). So there's an excellent engineering excuse for chopping that Equipe and making it look awsome!
Hi Sgtlethargic. The metro engines available to us are mostly MPFI models, so it seems silly not to try and use the injectors. Propane carbs can be had too in the UK but I guess I'd have a little more control with MPFI. Once I'm away from a good old fashioned carb, I might as well go MPFI.
Hucho's book has the basis from which the template was created. There's a huuuuuge thread on ecomodders about how it was generated (actually, I think there's three). The book is aimed primarily at road vehicles so there's lots of stuff that's applicable to things like this (I have other aero books for Race car design but I don't usually take them off the shelf for my projects).
Agree completely on weight hurting stop/start and aero hurting highway. Even in my around town mpg is only 1/3 of my highway mpg, I do waaaaay under 1/3 of my driving in those circumstances. Even when I am around town, I tend to drive economically. Threading a big ol' Mopar with no power steering/power brakes/handling through British roads is a real good way of learning to think ahead avoid using the brake and accelerator too much. Flooring the loud pedal gets reserved for when I want it , I very rarely actually need to.
Since ecomodders got mentioned, and at the risk of getting my own thread shot down . . .
Bare with me here. I've always liked the clean look a lot of LSRs have, and closing up the wheels really helps. I've thought about incorporating front wheel covers like this. Keep them closed whilst driving straight but hinge open when steering.
Would let me get a clean front end look, like this:
That doesn't have a clean look, though.
I vaguely recall someone saying that front skirts aren't as big of an aero payoff as rear skirts.
I thought fastbacks could be dodgy (911!), but I really didn´t know the angles. You´d most likely be better off with a more raked screen, but you kind of lose the look a bit. Still, what do I know? Maybe its optimal. You always have the option of chopping and sectioning more, and the tail could also be made longer and perhaps more tapered. Flush windows and losing the gutters would doubtless all help. Probably simply getting the front wheels to fill the arches nice and flush, would be an easier way to smooth things out. Otherwise, what? Narrowed front end and limited lock?
Liking that ecomodders forum.
Hmm?? Interesting. It looks a bit
like the love child from an illicit
union between a Henry J and a
Plymouth Superbird....with a bit
of AMC Marlin DNA thrown into
the mix for good measure!!!
Yeah, you know.... same old, same old...
I reckon the back looks like a 64/66 Barracuda, with a touch of Citroen in there. Funny how a little chop makes the car look a whole lot bigger.
It was built by the owner after long talks with Frank Costin, so well spotted!
It is all wood and uses Citreon 2CV mechanicals. Reported to get over 100mpg.
It reminds me of something too. Some old racing Panhard maybe? Who knows! Something designed to go fast with a small motor at any rate.
It´s sectioned as well as chopped BTW. And i was looking at more pics of Bonds last night. Really does lend itself to this treatment.
How 'bout a street legal Indy car? From Car Craft mag 1961.
Something like the "Thunderbowl Comet" from 1936? Reportedly it was later driven on the street.
The third of your pictures shows a Lotus 11 with a full bubble over the driver's compartment. This car was prepared for some record attempt at Monza, but the driver (Moss?) absolutely hated the bubble (heat, noise), and it was removed before resuming the runs.
Too bad, because it was an incredibly beautiful car. I know that a profile view of it exists, but I can't find it.
This might not be the pic you are thinking off, but Ill post it anyway.
If I remember right, the rear sheetmetal fell off at some point during the record attempts.
Because the banked high speed corner at Monza was so rough...
i have one i started about 2 years ago and hit a brick wall. i started with a wing tank large enough to fully enclose 2 passengers comfortably without distorting the lines of the tank in any way, tank capacity is about 700 gal i think. currently stuck on an engineering problem
The MG body is Awesome by design.
Think this is the Fageol Supersonic - the car was originally a land speed racer but turned into a road car. Doesn't often happen that way round does it.
I know I am about to get thumped on by the gods of HAMB, but if you are looking for something cool, but fuel effecient, I have always been tempted to do the following
Take a 32 Ford plastic body and repro chassis, mate it with the running gear of an MX5 (stick a bonnet on it to hide the abomination). Make it look like a cool rod, but with the running costs of an MX5.
I just think it would be a cool commuter rod for those that have to submit themselves to proper traffic
Has anyone considered the Jim Hall Chaparrals of the 60's? Hall was all about getting the slickest car he could.
Sorry I don't have a pic, wouldn't know how to scan and load if I did.
Google "translator" => Aussie "MX5" = "Mazda Miata" in the USofA.
Here Mike. Hall's H2.
There was a car called the "Streetliner" in a book I used to have on Salt Flats racing. Lost the book in one move or another.. I seem to remember it ran an injected Hemi, and went 158 (ish). in the late 50s or early 60s... Anybody remember it or have any photos?
This the one?
Separate names with a comma.