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Projects Straight 8 RPU build thread

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by bobbytnm, Oct 24, 2017.

  1. bobbytnm
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,443

    bobbytnm
    Member

    Gentlemen,

    Nothing to report, my poor Packard remains stalled for the time being. I've been trying to sneak garage time here and there but it's been hard to come by. I did realize that I need to swap out the 40 Ford banjo that I've been using for mock up to the 36/37 banjo rear. I guess the 36/37 bones are a bit beefier and should hold up better. I'm going to have to shorten the rear bones by about 10". I'm thinking of cutting them back and adding the ball from a set of front bones.

    Larry, I'm planning on going to the dirt drags but I'll probably drive the 49 up there and see if I can sweet talk them into letting me run even though my engine is a 1970.

    Bobby
     
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  2. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 10,705

    Atwater Mike
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Very practical, albeit very 'Avant-Garde'! Cool as snow, I was surprised that you didn't have to 'kick' the straight legs of the 2" X 3" rails.
    I use '28-'31 Chevy rails on '27 T roadsters, my '27 tub nearly got the Chevy frame...but for some consarned numbers!
    Oh well, Deuce rails looked better, ('27 touring bodies are longer than a story...)
    Love your project, Bobby. DON'T STOP.
    We Packard 'former mechanics' depend on it.
    My ex ol' best friend Jack bought a '50 Packard with a '54 Chrysler 354 Hemi, Powerflite tranny. Hemi went into his '31 Plymouth P-A Coupe...with a '37 Packard box. Packard went 'south'...
     
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  3. bobbytnm
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,443

    bobbytnm
    Member

    Thanks
    I probably should have kicked the frame rails up a bit, but in the end I decided this was going to be old school. So old school that school is still spelled with a "ch" and not a "k". I didn't want the dropped on the ground look.

    Well, the trip to the Hot Rod Dirt Drags in Monte Vista, CO did wonders for pushing the motivation button. I managed to sneak a bit of time in the garage yesterday and excavated down to the roadster (its amazing how much crap can get piled on top of a project...sheesh). I got it excavated and then pulled the bed and body off so I can have easier access to the rear suspension. When last I left off I had fabbed a rear spring mount but haven't figured out what to do about the rear wishbones.
    I'm going to fabricate an open drive conversion so I will have to figure out a front wishbone mount. My initial thoughts were to use the ball mount from an old set of front wishbones and make the rear mount just like the front.
    Due to the length of my engine the rear of the trans extends back about a foot beyond the front of the wishbones. With my T5 trans the wishbones will almost bolt directly to the bottom of the T5. Its close enough that I think I might fab a bracket with a heim or Johnny Joint and bolt it to the trans.
    Any thoughts on this?
    Here are some pics
    IMG_4736.JPG IMG_4737.JPG IMG_4739.JPG thumbnail_image1.jpg thumbnail_image2.jpg thumbnail_image3.jpg
     
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  4. bobbytnm
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,443

    bobbytnm
    Member

    As I said, my initial plan was to shorten the wishbones and adapt a ball mount from an old set of front wishbones and modify my transmission crossmember to include the wishbone ball mount on the back side of it.

    I'd appreciate some input on it

    Thanks
    Bobby
     
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  5. I have always been told that the trailing arms should pivot with the rear tranny yoke. Reviewing other builds seems to indicate that many follow this design. In you case you would have to shorten the arms and bend them to meet with the yoke pivot angle. After that you will need to strengthen those arms for the torque that 8 is going to pass thru to the rear when you get aggressive:rolleyes:
    Here is one I am working on
    arms.jpg
     
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  6. Hey Bobby, I've been following since the beginning, having a personal love of the big Packard 8. I have never done what you are asking about so these are just observations.
    First, the ear cast into the bottom of the S-10 T5 was not engineered to handle the loads it would see by attaching the rear bones to it. I believe the case would fail prematurely if you went this route.
    Second, Henry's rear suspension design depended on the rigidity of the three triangles formed by the torque tube and the rear radius rods to keep the rear axle from torque rolling with acceleration and deceleration, among other functions. Eliminating the torque tube with an open drive takes away two of those three triangles which you must try and replace. This appears to be what Mr. VTW is accomplishing with the webbed bones he has shown. I assume these attach to the rear axle top and bottom, restoring the three triangle mount of the axle.
    Try and duplicate that system and try and pivot everything near the same point in the chassis and you should be rolling reliably in no time.
     
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  7. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 10,705

    Atwater Mike
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

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  8. bobbytnm
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,443

    bobbytnm
    Member

    Gentlemen,
    Thanks for the replies. Great advice! Yea, deep down I knew that the ear on the tranny wasn't the best solution....
    ...besides, that would have been way too easy...lol

    Thanks for pointing out that the wishbones should pivot with the rear tranny yoke, I hadn't considered that.
    I'll go back to Plan A. I have an old ball mount from a set of front wishbones. I think I can fab a mirror image of my existing tranny mount, tie them both together and be able to bolt the wishbone mount to it.
    I'll have to shorten the wishbones about 13" but that shouldn't be a major deal. I will also fab a bar from the top of the banjo rear forward to the frame to help prevent the diff from trying to roll up.

    I dug around the steel pile and think I have enough material to make a start on it. Hopefully Thursday after work I can start laying stuff out.

    Thanks again for the advice, you guys are awesome!
    Bobby
     
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  9. bobbytnm
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,443

    bobbytnm
    Member

    So, taking the proffered advice, I had some time this evening to dig around the steel pile to see what I had to work with. The plan is to make another x-member as a mirror image of my tranny x-member but with a mounting tab for a wishbone ball mount. I'll get it positioned so the ball mount is in line with the front driveshaft U-joint and then tie the 2 x-members together.
    I cut and bent some square tubing to match the tranny x-member, then cut and drilled a mounting plate for the ball mount. I still have to bend the ear back on the ball mount and fabricate some ends for the x-member but its coming together. I had to stop tonight as I ran out of time and the next step requires a bit of the garage hokey-pokey to dig my torches out.
    Once this is all done then I'll tackle shortening the wishbones and adding the ball

    fun, fun, fun...
    Bobby

    IMG_4832r.jpg IMG_4833r.jpg IMG_4834r.jpg
     
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  10. bobbytnm
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,443

    bobbytnm
    Member

    I managed some more garage time. I think I have the x-member pretty much finished up.
    Before I jump in and start hacking and bending on the wishbones I need to make a decision. I want to keep the wide 5 bolt pattern but I want hydraulic brakes. I think I have what I need to convert my 38 Ford front axle to hydraulic. Right the rear axle that's sitting under my frame is a '40 Ford banjo. I was just going to swap on my wide 5 drums and call it good. But, looking a the wishbones there a bit of a difference. At the end of the 40 wishbones there is a small cast piece that bolts the backing plate flange whereas the earlier 38-38 wishbones seem to have a large cast piece that bolts to a flange on the axle tube. The set-up looks a bit more robust than the 40.
    So, do I keep the 40 and swap the drums or go with the earlier and convert to hydraulic? I'm thinking the earlier wishbone set up looks beefier and I should probably go that route.

    IMG_4843.JPEG IMG_4845.JPEG IMG_4846.JPEG IMG_4848.JPEG
     
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  11. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,749

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    37 up rear drums work with 39 up juice backing plates which fit 28 up rear ends. Choose whichever rear end you think is best and shuffle your brake parts around to get your Wide 5 juice brakes back there.

    As for the front, 36 drums are a one year only design that will not work. 37 up will work on juice plates.

    http://www.fordgarage.com/pages/V8brakedrums.htm
     
  12. bobbytnm
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,443

    bobbytnm
    Member

    Awesome info!! thanks for that!
    I think I'm good to go then. My front axle is supposed to be 38 and I'm pretty sure the front backing plates I have on the shelf are 39 or 40.
    I'm pretty sure my wide 5 rear is not a 36, and I can use the juice set up from this 40 rear.
    Woohoo, I love it when it all starts falling into place

    Thanks again for that info on the brakes, that's very helpful
    Bobby
     
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  13. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,749

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Even if the rear IS a 36, the drums should work with juice plates. I'm almost certain the rear drums are the same from 36 to 39. I think I meant to say 36 up rears but got my wires crossed there, sorry. I'd imagine @Bruce Lancaster knows definitively.

    The only oddball is the front for that year and it's a rabbit hole trying to find the right plates to go to juice with that spindle (also special, I believe) and drum. If I remember correctly, the 36 spindle has a longer threaded snout and the only juice plate that supposedly works is a 41 Lincoln (unobtanium).
     
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  14. bobbytnm
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,443

    bobbytnm
    Member

    Yea, I've heard that the 36 was a 1 year only oddball. I think I'm in the clear, I'm fairly certain that my front axle is 38.
    I have several banjo rears, the one I have this a wide 5 I kind of remember that I determined that it wasn't a 36. For the life of me I can't remember how I came to that determination or when I did it... ...this getting old things sucks....LOL
     
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  15. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,749

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    Well the front end is pretty simple too as long as you've got all the right stuff that works with that front end. If you are not splitting the wishbone, you need one that fits the perch boss centers. If it doesn't or if the opening is too small or too large, you're mismatched.

    You can run 37 up spindles on all of them.

    Here's a good reference point over at Nostalgia Sid's:
    https://droppedaxles.com/ford-dropped-axles-0

    1937-41 FORD AXLE:
    38-1/2" Spring perch Center to Center
    2-1/4 Spring Perch Boss


    1933-36 FORD AXLE:
    36-1/2" Spring Perch Center to Center
    2" Spring Perch Boss

    1946-48 FORD AXLE:
    41" Spring perch Center to Center
    2-1/4 " Spring Perch Boss
     
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  16. bobbytnm
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,443

    bobbytnm
    Member

    Out with the old, in with the... ...well...
    ...older

    OK, so I rolled the 40 banjo out from under the frame and after a bit of excavation in the back yard parts pile I dug up the earlier banjo and was able to roll it back under the frame. One of the spring shackles on the 40 banjo was totally trashed and some previous owner had welded the whole thing together...lol.
    I ran out of steam last night so I didn't get the torque tube pulled from it yet. Somehow I didn't feel like getting covered with 80 year old stinky rear end grease.

    Hopefully I'll get a chance to get the torque tube pulled off one night this week.

    IMG_4989.JPEG IMG_4990.JPEG IMG_4992.JPEG IMG_4993.JPEG
     
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  17. bobbytnm
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,443

    bobbytnm
    Member

    One step forward...several steps back.

    This banjo rear came from a small trailer that I picked up several years ago. I pulled the torque tube off this afternoon. I was a little surprised to find that there is no driveshaft inside, there is a block off plate at the diff and the pinion shaft is missing....ugh.

    So, now its decision time;
    Do I stay with this rear diff and tear some of my others banjos apart to make this one complete?
    Do I go back with the 40 banjo and abandon this beefier wishbone set-up?
    Do I keep these wishbones and fabricate some mounting brackets on the 40 banjo axle tubes?

    Every time I think I've conquered a build issue it seems like several more issues pop up and set me back....ugh.
    This is a stupid hobby...LOL

    Bobby
    IMG_4994.JPEG IMG_4996.JPEG
     
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  18. cool project for sure,...can you roll it outside for a few pics sometime?...and any more pics of your F-1?
     
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  19. You’ll get there, stupid hobby and all! Made me laugh out loud!
     
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  20. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,749

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    You can just swap the bells onto the 40 rear end; they are the same width. It's not really all that difficult to do but it's helpful to be able to stand them up when you do this.

    https://www.hotrodworks.com/technical-information/rear-axle-measurements/

    Get some new gaskets; you will need them. While you've got things apart it's a good time to inspect things. You will want to read up on rebuilding these too but for mockup you'll be fine just assembling what you need to get the car laid out.
     
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  21. bobbytnm
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,443

    bobbytnm
    Member

    rusty1 -- I'm not going to roll it out until I get the rear suspension 100%. It's tempting to do it now, but, I'm going to hold back. I think I have a few more pics of my F1 in my gallery. Its basically my beater, its a fun old truck. I have a Caddy 500ci for power. Just recently made a 500 mile round trip to the dirt drags in Colorado with it and got over 17 MPG (the 2.75:1 axle ratio is awesome for road trips)

    patmanta -- thanks again for all of your great info. I think I have a plan. I think I've decided to use the 1940 banjo. I'm going to get some 3/8" plate and fabricate some mounting plates so I can use the 35/36 wishbones. I'll have to swap on the older drums as well as I plan on keeping the wide 5 wheels.
    The mounting plates shouldn't be too bad to fab up. I know you can buy premade plates but they are for 9" for axles which have a much larger axle tube.

    Thanks everyone for your interest
    Bobby
     
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  22. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,749

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    You CAN do it that way, but as long as the axle housings are the same length, you can just unbolt everything and reassemble what you need, brakes included. It's not that big of a deal.

    I'd be more worried about getting the drums off honestly. I mangled one of those plate steel Ford hub pullers a couple weeks ago and had to use a conventional puller, which won't work on Wide 5's.
     
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  23. bobbytnm
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,443

    bobbytnm
    Member

    patmanta, interesting, but looking at one of those charts in your link it looks like the spider gears are different between 35-38 and 39-41. I guess I better step back a bit and do some research and see what I'm up against.

    So, its back to the "hand-wringing" and "worrying" stages of this build. I'm good at this part, all I have to do is crack open a frosty beverage or two and start over-thinking everything.

    Thanks
    Bobby
     
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  24. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,749

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    The axles and bells don't necessarily care what's in the center as long as they're the right length to line up with each other. I am a habitual over-thinker too and a lot of my build threads are full of me overhthinking and agonizing instead of getting stuff done.
     
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  25. bobbytnm
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,443

    bobbytnm
    Member

    I think I've decided to fabricate some brackets that will let me use the 35/36 wishbones on the 40 banjo. It just seams easier to me that to try and disassemble several banjo and piece one back together. I can just imagine how much of a mess I could make in my garage with that stinky old diff grease....yuck.

    So, in the meantime I decide to at least break the hubs loose on my pile of banjos. I called up an old friend and fellow HAMBer to see if I could borrow a hub puller. Winduptoy was generous enough to lend me the puller and I got to spend a pleasant afternoon drooling over his toys. The downside is that I now have serious engine envy. Unfortunately the hub puller didn't help. Its the style that goes over the lug studs and won't stretch out far enough for the wide 5 axle.

    So, I dug around in my scrap steel bin and amassed some stuff and figured I'd try my hand at fabbing a puller. I used some 3/8" plate for the bottom, some 2.5x2.5 square tubing, some 1/4" plate for the top and a 5/8" bolt and nut. I took a 3" square piece of the 3/8" plate, poked a hole in the middle and then cut it out into a slot. This plate will slip over the shoulder on the hub. Then I notched a window in one side of the square tubing. I drilled a hole in the 1/4" plate and welded the 5/8" nut to it before welding both plates to the tubing. I still need to grind the 5/8" bolt into a point so that it will engage in the end of the axle shaft. But, after I welded the whole mess together I was anxious to try it out so, after flushing up the axle nut with the end of the axle I slipped my puller in place and used a washer between the end of the bolt and the axle nut. I started tightened the pulled bolt. Once I had some good tension on it I gave the bolt a good whack with a hammer. I had to repeat the process twice before the hub came free but it works great. I have 3 more banjo rears to try it out on. I hope it holds together.
    All in all I was able to put this together in a couple of hours with stuff that I had laying around. Not a bad way to spend an afternoon

    IMG_5006.JPEG IMG_5007.JPEG IMG_5008.JPEG IMG_5009.JPEG IMG_5010.JPEG IMG_5011.JPEG
     
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  26. winduptoy
    Joined: Feb 19, 2013
    Posts: 2,557

    winduptoy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

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  27. patmanta
    Joined: May 10, 2011
    Posts: 3,749

    patmanta
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Woburn, MA
    1. MASSACHUSETTS HAMB

    That's a pretty spot on replication of the Ford puller you got there. Did it work?

    I actually just mangled one I got off of eBay; it was of the multiple piece variety that you have to assemble around the collar.
     
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  28. Nice job on the homemade hub puller!
     
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  29. bobbytnm
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 1,443

    bobbytnm
    Member

    Thanks guys. They say necessity is the mother of invention. I disagree slightly, I say being broke is the mother of invention (I guess it helps to have a need as well)

    So far the hub puller works like a dream. I've only pulled 2 hubs so far. Hopefully this weekend I can give it a real stress test. I took a few minutes tonight to grind the tip of the bolt down into a point so that it engages in the end of the axle shaft and I dolled the whole thing up with a coat of paint.

    Bobby

    IMG_5021.jpg
     
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  30. 64 DODGE 440
    Joined: Sep 2, 2006
    Posts: 4,304

    64 DODGE 440
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from so cal

    Instead of grinding the bolt to a point you can drill the right size hole in the end and press a ball bearing into it.
     

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