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History Stock-S/S-F/X 1959-1966

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Race Artist, Mar 2, 2008.

  1. Tom S. in Tn.
    Joined: Jan 16, 2011
    Posts: 1,108

    Tom S. in Tn.
    Member

    Some of the tracks we used to go to were segregated. Not by race, but by manufacturer of what you rolled in with.
    Fords would pit on one side while Chev's would pit on the other and the girlfriends and wives would fight in the stands.
    Mopar guys sat back and laffed their asses off!
    Tom S. in Tn.
     
  2. 4tford
    Joined: Aug 27, 2005
    Posts: 1,794

    4tford
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    It was wild on woodward back then and there was alot of factory testing there also. I remember royal pontiac running cars there and the silver bullet hemi. My buddy had a 63 ford covertible 427 4spd we run there. A few well built 64 pontiac 421's were running there also. So you are right on show me what you got back then you never knew what you would run up against.
     
  3. Tom S. in Tn.
    Joined: Jan 16, 2011
    Posts: 1,108

    Tom S. in Tn.
    Member

    You all do not have any pictures from Detroit streets and places like Grand Spalding do you? Mfg's experimental toys locking horns on the streets perhaps??
    I recently saw a photograph of the Dearborn Steel Tube bldg. Nothing real special unless you had a car that came out of it.
    Tom S. in Tn.
     
  4. Dave Lyall
    Joined: Jan 3, 2010
    Posts: 104

    Dave Lyall
    Member

    Dearborn Steel Tubing's shop was smaller than all of the major new-car dealers in the area, and if you Google Earth (Starting at Michigan Avenue and Gulley Road, Dearborn, Michigan) their old building is on Trowbridge Street the 3rd building east of Gulley Road, just north of the railroad tracks. DSTs original building would be hard-pressed to service more than a dozen vehicles at once. What was special about DST was not their size, but the talent of the people who worked there, the capabilities they had, and the can-do attitude of the management, starting with Andy Hotton and down through Bill "Hammer" Mason. I first meet them when they had the contract to assemble the multiple carburetor intake manifolds and ship them as complete ready-to-install kits to the Dearborn Engine Plant, for the old H.O. Y-Block engines and again later on the triple-carburetor and dual 4-barrel FE engines.

    The DST multiple carburetor kits facilitated the assembly process so when the long block came down the engine assembly line, the complete carburetor, manifold, fuel line and linkage kit was uncrated and bolted on the engine at the assembly station that usually installed just the bare intake manifold. This "kitting" saved unnecessary complexity at the Dearborn Engine plant, as these multiple carburetor engines represented a very small amount of the daily engine production, and if each component of these engines were installed one piece at a time like the single-carburetor engines, they would need to add stations and manpower for only these engines, making the cost of these engines too high. Dearborn Engine was the only supplier of the H.O. Y-Blocks and all of the car and truck FE engines, which running two lines and two shifts a day at times would equal up to 2500 engines per day.

    <O:pSome of these special high performance parts found their way out DST&#8217;s back door to Ford Racers, I being among the beneficiaries. In addition to the machine shop, sub-assembly area and fabrication shops, DST had a vehicle shop that did the special vehicle build and modifications which needed to be "expedited" and not run though the internal prototype shops at the Dearborn Engineering Center. The who's who of the local Ford racers routinely could be found at the DST shop. When DST was awarded the Thunderbolt Production Build Program, they had to lease a larger shop several blocks away. DST today is technically a different company; &#8220;Diversified Service Technologies&#8221; but is the survivor of the original DST, including their original employees. In fact Bill &#8220;Hammer&#8221; Mason still worked there well into his 70&#8217;s until he passed away. The present-day DST primarily provide logistics, auto show, on-site testing, and media support.<O:p
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2011
  5. wrench409
    Joined: Oct 16, 2006
    Posts: 372

    wrench409
    Member Emeritus
    from Here

  6. Falconred
    Joined: Mar 27, 2008
    Posts: 872

    Falconred
    Member

  7. 4tford
    Joined: Aug 27, 2005
    Posts: 1,794

    4tford
    ALLIANCE MEMBER


    here are a few pics of local detroit cars from back then. The silver bullit article is there also.
     

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  8. slowmotion
    Joined: Nov 21, 2011
    Posts: 3,295

    slowmotion
    Member



    And Sonny Bono wheelin' that Chevy to boot! :D
     
  9. wrench409
    Joined: Oct 16, 2006
    Posts: 372

    wrench409
    Member Emeritus
    from Here

    The video I am searching for is the 62 Chevy/62 Ford matchup.

    The Chevy did some odd things like sitting crossways when the Ford took off, driver made the swing and still beat the Ford. Next the Chevy was pointed backwards, the Ford takes off and the Chevy does a 180 and still beats the Ford.

    This was on a VHS videotape.
     
  10. Truckedup
    Joined: Jul 25, 2006
    Posts: 4,280

    Truckedup
    Member

    Less than Ford spent on racing.Ford went after European type racing with the GT-40,was the on the top at Nascar for a few years.Mega buck racing
    at it's best.
    Aluminum front ends and cast factory headers are chump change in comparison.The Big Block Chevy racing program was a Skunk Works back door project.It made a dramatic powerful entry but reliability suffered from lack of development.
     
  11. Should have been a four way race with a Max Wedge Dodge and Plymouth as well, not the outcome they would have wanted . . . Could have had the little old lady from Pasedena drive the Dodge!
     
  12. Falconred
    Joined: Mar 27, 2008
    Posts: 872

    Falconred
    Member

    We were talking Galaxies and Impalas '62-63. The GT program a whole 'nuther story, But Ford whooped Ferrari's butt didn't they. By the way I saw the '63 Mystry engines run in NASCAR and they were VERY fast but wouldn't last, it would have been interesting to see what would have happened if GM hadn't pulled their support of Smokey's and Junior's teams.

    Some of the stuff GM was supplying to their teams would rival the Ford stuff, it boils down to the fact that Ford admitted and advertised their offerings while GM used the "what is the definition on if, the and etc., similar to Bill Clinton.

    We can do this all day long but in the end I'm gonna be a Ford man and you are going to be for GM so lets just accept that both may have streached the truth just a little in their advertisements.
     
  13. Tom S. in Tn.
    Joined: Jan 16, 2011
    Posts: 1,108

    Tom S. in Tn.
    Member

    [​IMG]

    Wasn't this out in Texas?
    Freddie Clifford bought the 1 piece f'glass body from the 67-68(?) Infinity car when Gay updated, and it came from Texas I thought.
    Clifford ran in the injected fuel funny car class and renamed the body Godfather.
    I thrive off these old shots to put me back to thinking. Super!
    Thanks to all; Tom S. in Tn.
     
  14. Tom S. in Tn.
    Joined: Jan 16, 2011
    Posts: 1,108

    Tom S. in Tn.
    Member

    #2268;
    Mr. Lyall, at the risk of appearing derogatory, not to mention risking censorship for getting off topic, but I just have to ask if you have seen any of these photographs? I found this trying Google for Detroit Michigan and I'm stunned.

    http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1882089,00.html

    I was never in Detroit but once when I went in and out of the airport.
    I'd enjoy seeing photo's from the 50's and 60's when R&D projects roamed around.
    Tom S. in Tn.
     
  15. 4tford
    Joined: Aug 27, 2005
    Posts: 1,794

    4tford
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I will comment on the photos, yeah there is plenty of old buildings that need to come down but there is also a bunch of restoration taking place as well. With the bad economy things slowed down a bit. If you want to see Detroit come here during the Woodward Dream Cruise which draws 1 million people up and down woodward for cruising old cars of all types. It is usually a weeklong cruise that builds to the actual day which is the third Saturday in August. Google Woodward Dream Cruise and you will see what I'm talking about. The cruise is what actually was happening back in the 50's and 60's and still continues in the summer on weekends.
     
  16. Dennis K.
    Joined: Dec 28, 2006
    Posts: 479

    Dennis K.
    Member
    from Detroit MI

    Here are some early pictures of DST on Trowbridge. The Comet wagon has a 352 with Corvette alum T-10 and 9" in it, with Bob Larson and Helmut Schiner standing behind it. The truck has a 406, with Andy's son Don Hotton, Andy Hotton, and Jim Hammer Mason standing beside it.

    The more recent photos taken in 2009 is what it looks like today. The Trowbridge building is where the first eleven burgundy T-Bolts were constructed. The other building on Bailey St. at the time belonged to John Hollowell of Hollowell Engineering and is where the 89 white DSO T-Bolts were converted and assembled. Hollowell was the design and drafting division of DST.
    Back in the 70's I recall being sent over to the Bailey St bldg for an interview with Ford Aeronutronic, who was using the building at the time. I should of looked to see if there were any T-Bolt parts left behind. LOL

    Regards,
    Dennis
     

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    Last edited: Dec 23, 2011
  17. Tom S. in Tn.
    Joined: Jan 16, 2011
    Posts: 1,108

    Tom S. in Tn.
    Member

    #2280;
    " I should of looked to see if there were any T-Bolt parts left behind. LOL "

    Who knows, they would probably have given them to you to get rid of them.

    [​IMG]
    I've seen home made hot rods, but this kind of thing had to be a real hoot.
    What was it's designed purpose? One wouldn't think a wagon would have been for racing. Towing options? If it were from around Appalachia, I'd say it was made to haul untaxed liquor. Tom S.
     
  18. fordflashback
    Joined: Mar 9, 2008
    Posts: 48

    fordflashback
    Member

    A little trivia question, does anyone know where DST's original location was. :)
     
  19. Dennis K.
    Joined: Dec 28, 2006
    Posts: 479

    Dennis K.
    Member
    from Detroit MI

    Are you talking Hotton and Sullivan Engineering or Dearborn Steel Tubing Co?

    Regards,
    Dennis
     
  20. fordflashback
    Joined: Mar 9, 2008
    Posts: 48

    fordflashback
    Member

    Both, they had the same location.
     
  21. Dennis K.
    Joined: Dec 28, 2006
    Posts: 479

    Dennis K.
    Member
    from Detroit MI

    I'm aware of Hotton and Sullivan Engineering having a Mich Ave, Dearborn address in the late 40's. However, the Article of Incorporation papers filed April 1955 for forming a corporation named "Dearborn Steel Tubing Co." show the "Location of the first registered office" as 25241 Trowbridge, Dearborn.

    I'm curious, do you have an earlier document that shows DST at the Mich Ave address?

    One thing about research, especially on the Thunderbolt, I've found something new can always be learned.

    Regards,
    Dennis
     
  22. fordflashback
    Joined: Mar 9, 2008
    Posts: 48

    fordflashback
    Member

    This info is from the old Dearborn city directories. The first Trowbridge listing I found was 1955.

    1950-51
    Hotten & Sullivan
    Andrew L Hotten & Donnell A Sullivan
    Automotive specialty engineering
    22148 Michigan Ave. Calvin Theatre bldg #415


    1953
    Dearborn Steel & Tube co.
    Andrew L Hotten pres
    415 Calvin Theatre bldg
    22148 Michigan Ave

    Here's the building in 1979, it was torn down in the 1980s.

    [​IMG]
     
  23. Dave Lyall
    Joined: Jan 3, 2010
    Posts: 104

    Dave Lyall
    Member

    The pictures shown in your post are real, as there has been a steady decay of much of "Old" Detroit since the Late 50's. The movie "Grand Torino", although filmed in Hamtramck, (which is a small city now completely surrounded by Detroit) this movie represents what has happened to much of Detroit Proper. After WWII, there was a huge building boom in the areas immediately surrounding Detroit. The working class whites, drawn by the prospect of owning their own home in the less crowded suburbs began moving out. They were replaced house by house and neighborhood by neighborhood by increasingly less and less prosperous non-whites, drawn to the city because of jobs in the Auto Industry. As Detroit became predominately non-white, and much less prosperous, the decay which had started with the early white-flight expanded and worsened. Then in 1974 Detroit elected Coleman Young as it's first black mayor. Coleman Young, who at the very least was a reverse racist, promptly filled the city government with his friends and cronies, regardless of talent or ability or lack thereof. The white-flight which had begun years earlier went into overdrive under Coleman Young. The core Detroit businesses, many shown in your pictures and which had been supported by the middle and upper-middle class whites, began to close as they lost thier customer base. The tax base fell, curtailing city services, and the crime went up, increasing the demand on these city services. Unfortunately, that political operating process has only recently ended with Mayor Kawmie Kilpatrick going to prison on corruption-related charges. Now the city of Detroit is bankrupt, and there is a political fight going on as to whether the state should take over the city administration. It is a sad state of affairs for a city which put America on wheels and which was the "Arsenal of Democracy" during two world wars, but the problems of Detroit are endemic to many large cities in the US today. But it could be said Detroit, for the political reasons stated above, has done the worst job of coping with these changes, especially when compared to Chicago or Atlanta. The current Detroit Mayor Dave Bing, (ex basketball star) has made a valiant attempt, and has an executive background running his own companies, The Bing Group. However, it may be a case of too little and/or too late.

    There has been some good news though, and if you drive around Detroit you will see both the decay your pictures indicate, and some new growth and building going on. As a point of interest, I also attached a picture of the Detroit 7 mile Rd and Van Dyke house my Mom grew up in, taken in 1925 when the house was new, (built on then-recently subdivided farmland) and a picture taken recently, with that house now an abandoned derelict.

    <O:p
    In my case, my family (My father was born in Detroit) shortly after marriage moved from a rented appartment in Detroit to thier new home in the suburbs, to what was called the City of East Detroit (now Eastpointe) in 1936, and I grew up in that town. When we moved there were many active farms still in use, and the city did not get completely built out until the &#8216;60s. Attached is a picture of me as a 7-year-old playing in the vacant lot next to our house in East Detroit in 1947. You will notice the new basements being dug, with our street being built out in the late 50&#8217;s. Unfortunately, Eastpointe (AKA East Detroit) is now undergoing the same urban changes as Detroit did a half century earlier, and with the same set of accompanying problems.
     

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    Last edited: Dec 26, 2011
  24. Dennis K.
    Joined: Dec 28, 2006
    Posts: 479

    Dennis K.
    Member
    from Detroit MI

    Yes, I agree on the 22148 street address for H&S Engrg.

    Interesting, one of the Board of Directors in the Dearborn Steel Tubing Co. Articles of Incorporation was Lyman B. Avery, 312 Calvin Building, Dearborn. Also, his name was mis-typed as "Hotten" at three places in the document, but was signed "Hotton". Filed on 11 April 1955.

    Was it spelled "Hotten" or "Hotton" in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com[​IMG]Dearborn </st1:City>city directory?

    Possible "Dearborn Steel & Tube Co." may of been a predessor company to "Dearborn Steel Tubing Co.". Looks like I'll have to check that out.

    When I researched the Bob Ford dealership, it had a number of variants of the name "Bob Ford", all listed as different dealerships at the same address.

    I also remember the <st1:placeName w:st="on">Calvin</st1:placeName> <st1:placeName w:st="on">Theatre</st1:placeName> and the <st1:placeName w:st="on">Carmen</st1:placeName> <st1:placeName w:st="on">Theatre</st1:placeName> both in <st1:City w:st="on">Dearborn</st1:City>. I believe they are both torn down, there's a Buddy's Pizza where the Calvin used to be. No chance of any Hotton and Sullivan cylinder heads still laying around there. LOL

    Regards,
    Dennis


     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2011
  25. Dennis K.
    Joined: Dec 28, 2006
    Posts: 479

    Dennis K.
    Member
    from Detroit MI

    Dave,

    I see you were running a "Mercury" back then. No wonder you tried to get a deal through Al Turner!

    Regards,
    Dennis

    p.s. I grew up on the west side of Detroit in the 50's and 60's. The 1967 riots didn't help matters. There was also a large influx of labor from the South during WW2 to work in all the defense plants, as many of the local men went into service. Most, if not all of the auto plants in Detroit and all over America were retooled for the war effort. We were the Arsenal of Democracy, unbelieveable what America could do back then.
     
  26. 4tford
    Joined: Aug 27, 2005
    Posts: 1,794

    4tford
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The Carmen Theater was on Schaffer road just north of Ford road. I used to work at Dependeble auto parts which had a part of the carmen theater building back in the mid 60's. I grew up in Dearborn afew blocks from the Carmen theater.
     
  27. Dave Lyall
    Joined: Jan 3, 2010
    Posts: 104

    Dave Lyall
    Member

    Dennis:

    You are right, as you can see in the picture my first Hot Rod was a Mercury, with Fred Flintstone power. I should have shown that picture to Al Turner telling him I had a Mercury tradition with a Ford intruption.

    When I was a teen, The "bad" part of Detroit only consisted of several blocks on each side of Hastings Street, between Gratiot Ave and Jefferson. The rest of the city was safe and solid. My parents took us to the big stores "downtown" for special holiday shopping trips which included better restaurants than we had in East Detroit. North of 8 Mile Road, (the Detroit City Limits and where the Street Car lines ended) Gratiot Avenue only consisted of two northbound and two southbound lanes, seperated by a grass median with gravel shoulders.
     
  28. Tom S. in Tn.
    Joined: Jan 16, 2011
    Posts: 1,108

    Tom S. in Tn.
    Member

    I can smell censorship coming because of how far off topic we have gone here, but I just had to throw this one in for you guys.
    The GM Saturn plant located in the tiny town of Spring Hill, Tn. in the late 80's, consumed and decimated Rippavilla, one of the most prestigious plantations left in the upper South since the 1800's.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Even though the big house and a few fields remain, this plant across the street has lights on but no one working. New Saturn dealerships vacant.

    I am angered at what runaway developers have done to the 'Old South', but after viewing those photo's from up north I think I can only share a portion of you guys pain.
     
  29. Race Artist
    Joined: Feb 9, 2008
    Posts: 954

    Race Artist
    Member

  30. Race Artist
    Joined: Feb 9, 2008
    Posts: 954

    Race Artist
    Member

    <HR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #e5e5e5; COLOR: #e5e5e5" SIZE=1> <!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->
    Here's a scan that came to me from somewhere that I can't recall ... I'm looking for any information on this publication and photos of similar cars and tracks.
    Joel
     

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