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Technical Steering Stops

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Ben Chirco, Apr 9, 2020.

  1. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 76

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    I have 1930 model A hot rod. Bought it last fall. Trying to make things better. The steering is off, meaning that I can go further one way than I can the other. The drop axel has a stop on the pass side as shown here. Front image and upside down.
    pass front.JPG
    here is the back of pass side
    pass rear.JPG
    The driver side has the following in the front
    drive front.JPG
    And this is the back of the driver side.
    drive rear.JPG
    I am a novice. Is the driver side a bolt broken off and I can drive it out?.. What is the correct hardware to go in here. The pass side looks like a lug nut for a fancy wheel.

    I don't know much about the car. I did not build it. Nor could I build it. It has a 65/66 mustang steering box.

    To try and center the turning radius equally, I have centered the steering wheel based upon its rotation and find the center. I then center the wheels parallel to the frame. Then I install the pitman arm by adjusting the drag link so the pitman arm fits on the steering box spines. The splines have 4 positions in which the arm can be installed. Every 1/4 turn.

    I finally concluded that i need the stops installed prior to turning to get the turning correct.

    So my question is first,
    First, the driver side stop push out? Or is it threaded?
    Second, am I going about the turning set up correctly?
    Thanks
     
  2. Marty Strode
    Joined: Apr 28, 2011
    Posts: 4,855

    Marty Strode
    Member

    It's hard to tell from your photos, but this is an original king pin lock and nut. If yours is broken off, use a drift punch and knock the remaining part of the wedge lock out, and replace it. IMG_4586.JPG IMG_4585.JPG
     
  3. Flathead Dave
    Joined: Mar 21, 2014
    Posts: 2,877

    Flathead Dave
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from So. Cal.

    Drive in circles
     
  4. 41rodderz
    Joined: Sep 27, 2010
    Posts: 4,705

    41rodderz
    Member
    from Oregon

    :p:D
     
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  5. jimvette59
    Joined: Apr 28, 2008
    Posts: 788

    jimvette59
    Member

    Buy a set and push them in from the back and the Stop / Nut should be in the front both sides.
     
  6. How about posting a picture of the pitman arm in the "steering wheel centered" position.
     
    Johnny Gee and clem like this.
  7. I'm not sure this advice is correct. I've always installed them with the nut stop on the rear side. With the spindle turned to full lock, the stop nut rests in a depressed circle on the rear side of the spindle.

    BTW, whatever you got going on with the driver's side, I would not be driving it until that spindle lock bolt, ready rod or whatever it is has been replaced with a proper pin as pictured above. I'm not sure there is anything holding it in place??
     
  8. jimvette59
    Joined: Apr 28, 2008
    Posts: 788

    jimvette59
    Member

    Yes but if I install them in from the front with nut in the back they go in to far. I really don't want to take the front end apart just for that reason.
     
  9. jimvette59
    Joined: Apr 28, 2008
    Posts: 788

    jimvette59
    Member

    Yes that is a lug nut !!!! 1/2 x 20 tpi
     
  10. bchctybob
    Joined: Sep 18, 2011
    Posts: 2,211

    bchctybob
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    From the looks of the steering stops and your description I suggest you take good pictures of the entire front suspension and let the experienced guys here have a look at it. Chassis stuff is very important for the safety of you and others and the folks here can help you identify and correct anything that may be suspect.



    Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  11. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 76

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    Thanks for the replies.
    Here is the pitman arm centered.
    pitman .JPG
    Here is a better picture of driver side
    front axle.JPG
    Here is a picture of back side of driver side.
    Back side.JPG

    So from what i have learned so far. I should drive them out and go to the auto supply house and find a matching size. If they have them. I see MACS sells them.

    Do i drive them out from the threaded side?

    Why would someone have installed the threads facing forward on the pass side and the threads facing backwards on driver side?

    Thanks Again
     
  12. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 76

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    bchctybob,
    I must have been posting my pictures when you posted your comment. If i need to take more let me know
     
  13. Marty Strode
    Joined: Apr 28, 2011
    Posts: 4,855

    Marty Strode
    Member

    I have only seen them furnished with new king pin sets, however they might be available otherwise. They should be driven in from the front, with tall nuts on the backside.
     
    missysdad1, alanp561 and lurker mick like this.
  14. When the steering wheel/steering box is centered, the pitman arm lower and upper pivot points should be vertical. It looks like you may need to rotate your pitman arm one or two teeth clockwise (as shown in the photo). You may need to file a new master spline(s) to allow that to happen. With the pitman arm pivot points vertical, the drag link travels the same distance each direction as the steering wheel is turned to the left and to the right.

    Yes, you drive the old pins out with the drift sitting on the threaded side. Look at the first photos provided by @Marty Strode, you can see the wedge shape.
     
    town sedan likes this.
  15. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 76

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    Here is a picture with the wheels all the way left. The stop on the pass side keeps it from moving more. left.JPG
    Here is a picture with the wheels to the right. The pitman arm is not hitting the bracket.
    right.JPG
    My pitman range of motion is only about 90 degrees.

    Should i start with new locking pins and stops and see what my range of motion is?
     
  16. Fordors
    Joined: Sep 22, 2016
    Posts: 2,753

    Fordors
    Member

    You can buy new lock pins and the steering stop nuts but I believe your king pins may be damaged where the lock engages them if the builder had substituted something other than the original type locks. He may have even ground the k/p’s for the bolts to pass through.
    F037667A-6BDB-451D-B0C6-5919E800B28F.jpeg
    Get the bolts (or whatever he used) out and check those slots on the king pins.
    If they are OK and the holes in the axle are 9/16” then you can confidently use new lock pins and the correct stop nuts.
    Right before posting this I noticed you have aftermarket spindles and it looks as though there is no relief in them that allows full range of motion for turns. 3C179AA8-D9B3-4C2D-9DAF-3936BA120766.jpeg
    That dimple (in the white circle) machined on the back side of the spindle is where the stop will contact it. You will have a greater turning circle but that will have no effect on safety or handling. It could be corrected but you do need to be careful not to reach the limit of travel in the steering box.
     
    alanp561 and town sedan like this.
  17. Answer to the first part of the question above is yes, get new lock pins and nuts. As @Fordors noted above, you will want to look at/measure the holes in your axle and the condition of your kingpins. You may be further ahead just buying a new king pin kit.

    But you still need to modify and move your pitman arm as I described above to ensure that not only does your car turn the same amount at the extremes of left and right...but the steering wheel steers the wheels the same amount left to right per degree of steering wheel rotation.

    As you're car is currently set up, it will steer quicker to the right than it does to the left. Without the steering stops, it will also turn further to the right than to the left.
     
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  18. pitman
    Joined: May 14, 2006
    Posts: 4,918

    pitman

    Good eye there! Pitman arm works equally, when drag link travel is split, half fwd, half rearward.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2020
  19. Hard to tell from the pictures, but you might want to check those castellated nuts for cotter pins as long as you're there.
    upload_2020-4-9_19-18-56.png
     
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  20. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 76

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    OK. I drove out the lock pins. They are 9/16 and appear to be shaped similar to what Marty Strode showed in his picture. So I believe the kingpins are good. I will order new ones and install them with the threads facing the rear.

    For the pitman arm. I am not sure I follow the advice. Are you suggesting that the pitman arm/drag link connection be at 12:00 when the wheels are straight and the steering wheel centered in the steering box?
     
  21. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 76

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    Thanks for the tip on the castle nuts. I know. I am waiting to install them when I am all done messing around
     
    charleyw likes this.
  22. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 15,515

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Take a small pointed edge of a file and file out the four wide splines of the pitman arm so they look like all the other narrow splines. Then you can clock the arm straight up when the box is centered. You will need to buy/create a new longer drag link to fit the pitman arm's new upright position.
     
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  23. bchctybob
    Joined: Sep 18, 2011
    Posts: 2,211

    bchctybob
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Ben, the answer is yes, if it's at 12 o'clock you should get equal movement in both directions. But I'll bet you won't be able to put the Pitman arm back on in that position because of the key spline not having a groove to seat in like you noticed before. Do what Alchemy said and reshape or remove that one thick spline on the Pitman arm, if it has four you'll have to file or remove all of them to be able to put the arm on in any position. It sounds harder to do than it is. You can order a new drag link in any length from Speedway Motors.
     
    alanp561 likes this.
  24. nobby
    Joined: Jan 8, 2006
    Posts: 464

    nobby
    Member

    I think if you have a mustang box and are intending on buying an aftermarket pitman arm without the 4 clocking splines.
    take note that the mustang box was avaialable in both 1'' and 1 1/16'' sector shaft diameters
    if, it turns out to be 1'' = use a vega pitman arm
    if 1 1/16 use a saginaw 525
    IMG_20200410_121707[1].jpg
    top stock vega, below late big sector mustang
    note - I think aftermarket vega pitmans are slightly longer than stock.
    you 'may' have an 18-1 ratio steering box, vega is 22-1 -
    or I thik you need a longer aftermarket arm in a stock vega box to get enough travel in the chord.
    or - you don't need one so long, so keep yours - something like that?

    the 'purpose' of the spindle stops - I reckon is to stop the ball nut inside the steering box, whacking the inside of the casting - before the spindle stops.

    p.s. you can get them with a drop, but if fited to a mustang box, I think you call it a kick, rather than an offset

    you will need a pitman arm puller, when using the pitman arm puller, place a g cramp across the fork prongs to stop them spreading
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
  25. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 76

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    Thanks for the help. I understand completely how to cut new groves to get the pitman arm to 12:00.

    My question is, and I appreciate the help, why would the fact that the pitman arm is at 12:00, make it travel equal both ways. It appears that I have it positioned in the middle right now and it travels both ways. I fully trust your advice and will start to make the change right now. But I would love to know why.
     
  26. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 76

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    Nobby,
    Mine is a 1" so i will look for a vega pitman arm. Any year specifically?

    p.s. you can get them with a drop, but if fited to a mustang box, I think you call it a kick, rather than an offset WHAT ARE YOU REFERRING TO HERE?

    I just mocked up my set up with the pitman/drag link at 12:00. The pictures here show what happens to my drag link when turned all the way to one side. Looks like i will need to bend whatever drag link i get.
    drag.JPG drag1.JPG

    I am starting to think that by trying to make my situation better, I am getting in over my head. I fully recognized that i had an issue and was trying to improve it, but not sure i can correctly do this.
     
  27. Ben Chirco
    Joined: Oct 21, 2019
    Posts: 76

    Ben Chirco
    Member

    I am looking into the vega pitman arm right now. I see a straight one and an off set. I am going to look at which will work for me. I think the offset will work based upon my last picture.
    Thanks
     
  28. nobby
    Joined: Jan 8, 2006
    Posts: 464

    nobby
    Member

    IMG_20200410_125015[1].jpg
    that's the guts of a steering box similar to yours
    before you do anything, find its centre - i.e. where the centre sector shaft tooth is in the middle of the ball nut, it will be at its tightest, it is cut I reckon so as to hold you in a straight line
    you can lock it off - if you like so it won't move, that is your starting position.
     
  29. nobby
    Joined: Jan 8, 2006
    Posts: 464

    nobby
    Member

    the vega arm maybe too long
    but notice how the aftermarket versions do not have the 4 master splines - designed so that you cannot fit them in the wrong position!!
    note on above, they have I think 32 splines to them, you wont get it perfect anyway, but better
    if 36 splines - 10 degrees per spline - etc etc
     

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