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Hot Rods Steering pulls when turning? !UPDATE 2/9/22!

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Shawn Wildman, Jan 26, 2022.

  1. Shawn Wildman
    Joined: Jul 8, 2018
    Posts: 75

    Shawn Wildman

    I admit, when you typed your first message I had to google ackerman. The pics on Wikipedia didn't make sense but your drawing above does. This is interesting stuff. Can you describe what effects the ackerman being to "high" or to "low" would be?
     
  2. upload_2022-1-27_8-23-37.png I'll try this again and hope the photo follows upload_2022-1-27_8-23-37.png
     
  3. It's directly tied to how the tires follow an arc. Best way to see it in action is use a compas and draw a 1/4 circle then let it out 1" and draw another from the same pivot point. Now with the pencil point still on your second arc move the Pivot point 1/4" and draw the line 2 back to your second start point. The line goes a different arc as does the tires when things aren't correct. You're plowing one tire and pulling the other one a different direction. You're not going to go around a corner very well. It eats up rubber and can cause things to fail. Not to mention the driver isn't very happy.
     
  4. Look close at the photo in my #62 post. You can see the inside tire is turned tighter to center than the outside tire. That's what makes it work, the actual amount of turn angle of each tire.
     
  5. greybeard360
    Joined: Feb 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,913

    greybeard360
    Member

    Do yourself a huge favor. Take the truck to an alignment shop and have them do a 4 wheel alignment on it, not so much as for trying to align it for now, but to have them give you a printout of where you are. It will tell you your caster, camber, ackerman and scrub all printed on paper. That will make it easier to see what changes you need to make. I know a lot of guys here think that a level and protractor will tell them what they want to know, but that alignment machine uses lasers to measure things.... far more accurate.
     
    '28phonebooth and Happydaze like this.
  6. dwollam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2012
    Posts: 1,724

    dwollam
    Member

    My CE deep drop steering arms have the tie rod end angled exactly like that! I figured I would heat and twist them to correct that before final install. I too thought it was weird.

    Dave
     
    Tman likes this.
  7. Shawn Wildman
    Joined: Jul 8, 2018
    Posts: 75

    Shawn Wildman

    Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense now.
     
    Pist-n-Broke likes this.
  8. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 3,995

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    Having done my fair share of front end alignments over the last 60 years I'll add this ; precise measurements , accurate equipment , computer printouts are all wonderful attractions , however , whether or not the vehicle goes down the road straight , doesnt pull , doesn't wear tires & handles well is far more important than numbers generated by a machine . When the vehicle does not respond appropriately to the " ideal" numbers , knowing what to change to get acceptable results is where an experienced mechanic makes all the difference , even if he uses a ball of string & a piece of chalk .
    The OP needs to modify his linkage or modify his obstruction before he worries too much about aligment
     
    X-cpe, bchctybob, Tman and 5 others like this.
  9. Personally, the last thing I would do is raise your truck in hopes of making it steer better. Whatever is wrong now will just follow. Any and all contact at any time with moving steering parts needs to be corrected and you'll be plenty happy with your end result. Scrap the M-2 thoughts. They have their own built-in problems. If you can't cure I beam issues you can't cure M-2 problems either.
     
    bchctybob, Tman, trevorsworth and 2 others like this.
  10. Words or experience right there and very true. I'll also add this, a ball of string a plumb bob a piece of Chalk and a long strait edge is exactly how you correct Ackerman. Now your next lesson may well be length ratio between steering arms and pitman arm, but that's a totally different issue.
     
    Tman and 2OLD2FAST like this.
  11. gary macdonald
    Joined: Jan 18, 2021
    Posts: 208

    gary macdonald
    Member

    It looks as if your wishbone ,at the axle connection, is going to hit the frame with a good bump . In my opinion you need to raise your front an inch or so plus take care of all the heated and bent suspension parts . Keep it safe . Im surprised the oul pan hasnt worn through.
    Post 43 first pic . If no one else said anything about the nylocks not looking secured , please check them out . The should have threads exposed . What front brakes are they ?
     
  12. Shawn Wildman
    Joined: Jul 8, 2018
    Posts: 75

    Shawn Wildman

    The brakes are reproduction 1939 Lincoln drum brakes. I'm not sure what you mean by the nylocks, can you describe to me what you're referring to in that picture?
     
  13. gary macdonald
    Joined: Jan 18, 2021
    Posts: 208

    gary macdonald
    Member

    The bolts that hold on your lower drops are held on by nylock nuts . They secure it from coming loose but the threads need to protrude or at least be even . It looks like your shock dust sleeves are also touching . Not bad but something to look at .
    Its a beautiful truck and you’re doing the correct thing by asking, after all keeping safe is the most important
     
    Shawn Wildman likes this.
  14. nobby
    Joined: Jan 8, 2006
    Posts: 816

    nobby
    Member

  15. 40FORDPU
    Joined: Mar 15, 2009
    Posts: 3,333

    40FORDPU
    Member
    from Yelm, Wa
    1. Northwest HAMBers

  16. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 30,846

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Hopefully most of that bend is in the bolts and not in the steering arms. When you take them off, set them on a smooth flat surface and hold a tri square up to the end of the arm with the hole for the tie rod and make sure that they are square to the mounting surface of the arm.
    Some are going to beat on me like I was a poor stepchild but if it were me and the area on the backing plates that is interfering with the arms could be slightly modified for clearance without causing any issue with brake shoes or hardware, I would modify the backing plates for clearance. That way the steering arms sit flat on the spindles, you don't need spacers and the Ackerman issue is most likely a moot point.

    I've seen a hundred threads on here on steering issues where someone tossed out the Ackerman thing to sound knowledgeable but this time the "dragging the tire on corners" thing is an Ackerman issue.
    [​IMG]
    Right now one tire does not want to follow around in a circle that is perfectly centered on the circle that the other tire is traveling on and or the rear tires don't want to follow in that circle.
    Normally where you see the issue when dealing with hot rods is when someone radically changes the wheelbase of the vehicle or uses steering pieces for a vehicle with a much different wheelbase than they are putting it on. Something such as an Anglia front axle on a stretched frame roadster with a 130-inch wheelbase. It isn't much of an issue with a drag car where normally only goes straight and the only turns are getting on to the return lane and a bit of maneuvering around the pits. It becomes a real issue when you are driving what should be a sweet little pickup and you are dragging a 250 buck bias white wall sideways on every turn.
    One last note: Use Grade 8 or better bolts and lock nuts when you go back together with it. Those Nylock nuts are usually rated around grade 2 to 5.
     
  17. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 19,925

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I still would check and correct the Ackerman measurements, even after doing all of that.

    I find that it is rarely correct when using generic parts. I have pieces of tape with marks and numbers all over the shop floor. It is worth the extra effort to get it dead-on.

    As you have mentioned, wrecking tires is not cheap, but it sure is a whole lot cheaper than stacking it in a ditch in a corner.
     
    Pist-n-Broke and Fordors like this.
  18. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 30,846

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Point well taken as I bought my first set of aftermarket steering arms in 59 years of owning and playing with cars just a couple of years ago. Even the wheel base of my T bucket was pretty close to the wheelbase of the spindle donor. Looking back that one didn't drag tires around corners but the caster was no doubt excessive. That from a front end mechanic who had access to all the equipment to check it but shoemakers kids do go barefoot.
     
  19. Elcohaulic
    Joined: Dec 27, 2017
    Posts: 2,598

    Elcohaulic

    Rear wheel can also cause a pull.
    Do you have a four link? Four link rear ends steel the car too. Next time you jack up your car or truck from the rear put the jack in front of the rear tires at the frame and lift it. You will see the difference from the other sides rear wheel.
     
  20. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 19,925

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    None of my cars are done. I can relate.
     
    Chavezk21 likes this.
  21. David Gersic
    Joined: Feb 15, 2015
    Posts: 2,499

    David Gersic
    Member
    from DeKalb, IL

    Nice looking truck. You’ll find more straight axle knowledge and advice here than anywhere else, especially when it’s no longer stock as delivered from the factory.

    I had a car where the gas tank seam failed. Yeah, watching a river of gas running down the park lot isn’t something you want to do.
     
  22. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 3,995

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    And hope to hell the long nose of the EPA doesn't find out !
     
  23. 1/8 In toe in, 3 to 6 Deg. of caster, then heat, bend, readjust, drive around.
     
  24. junkman8888
    Joined: Jan 28, 2009
    Posts: 813

    junkman8888
    Member

    I'd try to find out who manufactured the axle and see what steering arm they recommend. Apparently there are two styles of steering arms; the kind that "loops" around the lower kingpin boss, and the kind you have, which "loops"around underneath the lower kingpin boss. The other style of steering arms would eliminate your steering arm/brake backing plate interference problem, it may also help with your drag link problem. Best of luck with your project, and navigating all the conflicting information given so far.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2022
    2OLD2FAST likes this.
  25. As mentioned in post #76 when checking the steering arms are square on the surfaces (90*), this is not the case as this will or should be at an angle that includes the camber set on the spindle. 90* less the camber degree angle. JW
     
  26. dwollam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2012
    Posts: 1,724

    dwollam
    Member

    Like I said, those are CE lower arms just like the brand new ones I bought. I even took one off and set it in the vise and the tapered hole where the tie rod end goes is for sure at an angle in line with the tie rod. Guess I will have to take it back off again and take some pics. If I end up using them, I am going to heat and twist straight. It's not his backing plates.

    Dave
     
  27. choptop40
    Joined: Dec 23, 2009
    Posts: 4,230

    choptop40
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    looks like the hamb patrol is steering you in the right direction.....ha ha ..never take for granted what inexperience can do....
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2022
  28. nobby
    Joined: Jan 8, 2006
    Posts: 816

    nobby
    Member

    they are designed like that as the other sort rub the axle

    i would strt by measuring the spring perch width
    -i bet you are 36.5
    -i.e. you can gain an inch per side by simply running a stock axle @ 38.5
    get it lowered and stretched back to 48 OR bring it in some
    also get some spindles and have them done together to match you 112'' wheel base straight off the hop
    -you will need to buy a new 39.5'' wide spring - I think that these actually come in three different flavours of drop.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2022
  29. One more thing to check, as I experienced this recently on my 39. Aftermarket motor mount rubber biscuits have a tendency to collapse. Especially if the don’t have a steel band around them. If yours look squished, new motor mount biscuits WITH the steel band will raise the motor a little bit, giving more clearance at the pan.

    but I am in agreement also with previous posts, your steering arms look goofy. I used those same arms from CE with f100 brakes and they were perpendicular to the floor, and the tie rod end was level. Perhaps the arms are on the wrong side, I recall they had a bigger boss on one side to take up the room between the backing plate.
     
    Tman likes this.
  30. I posted (then deleted) that I thought from the pics you had the steering arms on the wrong side. I looked again and it looks like they are correct, but something worth checking. Like has been said, longer bolts and a good steel spacer should level out those steering arms. I'll bet that fixes your problem.
     

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