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Hot Rods Steering death wobble help

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by TudorTony, Apr 4, 2019.

  1. town sedan
    Joined: Aug 18, 2011
    Posts: 1,290

    town sedan
    Member

    "Not sure what the Hate Mustang 2 front end is about..."

    Ultimately there's nothing wrong with the Mustang II front suspension. It worked great under thousands of Pintos.

    Problem is there wasn't a lot of independent front suspension swapping going on in 1965 and earlier. 1965 and earlier is what the HAMB is all about, in your last almost 6 years here you should have noticed that small fact.

    Now for my personal take on street rod independent front suspensions. Awhile back I was shopping for a car, Wanted a '46 to '48 Ford coupe. I'd say that over 75% of the cars I saw advertised were lacking their Henry born front buggy spring set up. Oh well..., good luck with what ever you do.
    -Dave
     
  2. 1946caddy
    Joined: Dec 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,780

    1946caddy
    Member
    from washington

  3. Agree, ackerman angle is wrong. See pic that shows how the steering arms should point to the center of rear axle. You have opposite of ackerman with the spindles reversed to front steer. Also if you want a steering stabilizer, it should be inline with the tie rod. If my interpretation of your pictures is correct, your stabilizer is 90 degrees to the tie rod? Have you checked toe in? The heim joints should have at least the large washers under the bolt heads to prevent failure since they are in single shear. Overall seems to have too many points for a little play which will always contribute death wobble. Agree your shocks need to be shorter, you have no susp travel to speak of. That lack of susp travel is good though at the moment, because the way your drag link is set up it will have some bump steer. Longer drag link all the way to the pass side spindle is better. Think of the arc of the drag link as suspension moves up and down, it moves the tie rod left and right; a longer drag link helps minimize this. If the axle was just swapped left for right by turning it 180 degrees, it would have positive caster as well. Proper required is negative camber - top of spindle is leaned back relative to bottom when viewed from the side of vehicle.

    I do not like what you have, but the above points are valid for what you need to fix. You can carefully heat and bend the steering arms to get them to have proper ackerman. Some of the other problems may require some re-engineering. I won't say that a Must II based IFS is bad, being a full fendered it is hidden. Not traditional, but can be made to work fine and will be an improvement over what you have on the truck now.
     
    Baron and gimpyshotrods like this.
  4. Hollywood-East
    Joined: Mar 13, 2008
    Posts: 1,597

    Hollywood-East
    Member

    If M2 suspension is what You Think you want, I highly recommend You figure this system in original configuration out before you compound your problems
     
  5. bschwoeble
    Joined: Oct 20, 2008
    Posts: 738

    bschwoeble
    Member

    Read, read, and read some more. If you intend to work on you own vehicle, you can never have enough knowledge. Get a shop manual for your vehicle. Not a Chilton. Go to B&N and buy books on Hot Rod Front Ends. You can do it, but it takes knowledge and willing to learn.
     
  6. I think the dynamite comment is extreme , oh I also think it quite possibly be the best solution here.

    The body of the truck looks pretty decent but the frame and chassis its on is all wrong. It could be changed but requires starting over. Tudor seems to think just a minor tweak can correct the symptom. Until this thing gets blown up by dynamite and all recollection of what's there is gone,,,, only then can the problem causing the symptom be corrected.

    Yep its sucks plenty knowing you'll be spending more money fixing shit you've already paid good money for.
    Bite the billet and get it right.

    Soooo
    This thing sat for 23 years.
    Someone built it putting untold hours of effort into it, drove it, then said this thing needs help. Got frustrated and pissed of slowly realizing everything they did was for naught. Then they just parked it, walking past it everyday for 23 years. Until Tony pulled in the driveway with a pocket full of cash. Today this is Tony's problem now. Will it be a battle of 2 decades before it gets blown apart and fixed or sold?

    Just 20 lug nuts takes care of the wheels but that's the least of the troubles here
    IMG_2018.JPG
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2019
  7. drptop70ss
    Joined: May 31, 2010
    Posts: 1,185

    drptop70ss
    Member
    from NY

    Some of the replies here are why I will never use a straight axle, I will keep putting IFS in everything. This is where the traditional knowledge base is supposed to be but the guy just gets slammed instead of helped, so no way will I ask for help on setting up a straight axle here. Mustang 2 hated because it's not pre 65? Funny how T5 swaps and disc brakes are just fine. I would put a jag ifs under that truck for almost no cash and run it. Ranger hangers, S10 leafs, modern rear axle and done.
     
    Montana1, MO54Frank and hallrods like this.
  8. missysdad1
    Joined: Dec 9, 2008
    Posts: 3,045

    missysdad1
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    If this is the vehicle in question, and I guess it is, the fix doesn't have to be all that expensive. '40 and '41 pickups share the same frame/suspension as '40 passenger cars - all of 'em. So the solution is to find a '40 passenger car carcass with intact frame and suspension - if the OP looks hard enough he can probably find one for free - and do a body swap. Four guys can do it in an afternoon. Then do a mild update on the new chassis - dropped axle and shocks primarily - and go down the road. Oversimplified? Sure, but that's the best way to save what appears to be a very tidy little pickup.

    [​IMG]
     
    bchctybob, Cosmo50 and raven like this.
  9. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 17,441

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Yes, the sheetmetal on this truck seems to be just fine. A chassis swap to a 40 style frame would be the way I would go as well. And lower it about a foot.
     
  10. X-cpe
    Joined: Mar 9, 2018
    Posts: 1,302

    X-cpe

    Proper required is positive caster - top of spindle is leaned back relative to bottom when viewed from side of vehicle.

    Proper required is negative camber - top of tire is leaned in relative to bottom when viewed from front of vehicle.
     
    SquintBoy, Hnstray and 57 Fargo like this.
  11. badvolvo
    Joined: Jul 25, 2011
    Posts: 472

    badvolvo
    Member

    For sure, you got a mess under the front of that truck. But the truck looks solid and a good place to build from. I have a 36 chevy with the m2 stuff, love it and drive the shit out of it.
    I also have several solid axle vehicles, tire balance, toe in, bent wheels will cause the old death wobble on anything, even if it is all set up proper.
    You do need to take the advice of many here, redesign and start over. However, proper planning and it won't cost that much, nor take long to do it. Nice weekend project.
     
    31Vicky with a hemi likes this.

  12. What kind of help,,?
    What's pictured here is beyond any type of adjustment. Help can begin with understanding the theory behind what you're working with and then applying it. All of that is missing.

    How come this rock won't fly? This rock won't float either, help me.

    Personally I build what I want or what the customer wants. I'll offer advice based on personal experience. I'll say this though- Beware of the "quasi designed for your car" semi universal front end kits. Unless your ride is really really fucking close to a Pinto that kit is going to be full of stuff you won't like. Stubs can be done well or not, that's usually up to the operator doing the work and fittment and their choice of donor applied to the subject.
     
  13. tim troutman
    Joined: Aug 6, 2012
    Posts: 375

    tim troutman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I would try some stock type wheels and tires that are balanced. wide tires and wide offset wheels on the front just multiply problems that are there. all advice for getting the right frame is spot on. if you spend the money for a m2 or an axle don't put it on this frame. I would love to have your truck looks like some really nice sheet metal
     
  14. TudorTony
    Joined: Jun 2, 2013
    Posts: 223

    TudorTony
    Member
    from NJ

    Thx for all the help!
    Thx, getting to that point.
     
    missysdad1 likes this.
  15. Johnny Gee
    Joined: Dec 3, 2009
    Posts: 9,558

    Johnny Gee
    Member
    from Downey, Ca

    "I've sung a song about that there situation"
    [​IMG]
     
    Cliff Ramsdell and missysdad1 like this.
  16. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 8,912

    dirty old man
    Member Emeritus

    Whether YOU will ever use a straight axle under anything YOU build isn't the issue here. This thread comes from an inquiry by an obvious novice at hot rod builds and front end design and geometry who purchased a truck someone else built that has a body that looks quite nice. Now he has discovered why it sat in the shelter for over 2 decades as it's almost undrivable as built. Now he wants to find a fix for a front end that is wrong in concept, planning, choice of parts, and the installation of those parts.
    I raised the issue about the MENTION of M2 IFS here on HAMB, not. the USE of such a system, and I raised the issue because I knew that it was something that would get the thread shut down before the experienced and knowledgeable people here on HAMB could help him.
    As a moderator has explained, these systems are considered off topic here on HAMB and he has explained why. My opinion, or yours, about the correctness of this policy isn't important, as Ryan is the man who set up this forum, and the concept is his decision and it is the rule here on HIS forum.
    I can assure you however that there are numerous hot rods here on HAMB with various IFS setups and under a fat fender vehicle down at a proper altitude rather than jacked up like a gasser, they survive here. Just avoid mention of them and/or letting them be prominent in a pic. And if you want some advice on installing, using, or aligning such a setup, get it elsewhere.
     
  17. Ifff it were mine.....I'd leave the beam axle and go with a traditional steer setup. Use a F1, Mustang, Toyota or AD Chevy truck box, which ever one would fit best. Get the steering arms pointed the right direction (dropped bolt on arms, if necessary for clearance) and tie rod behind the axle. Whatever is in the way...headers, shock mounts, oil pan (offset tie rod to clear, if necessary), would get removed and/or modified. The truck just needs some steering love is all.
     
  18. Mr T body
    Joined: Nov 2, 2005
    Posts: 2,194

    Mr T body
    Alliance Vendor
    from SoCal

    See if the axle is usable, check the spindles to see if they need to be flipped, then scrap everything and start over.
     
    hallrods and dirty old man like this.
  19. missysdad1
    Joined: Dec 9, 2008
    Posts: 3,045

    missysdad1
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    It needs a lot more than that, IMHO. It's been converted to parallel leaf springs on both ends and sits like a 4WD as well as having unfathomable steering cobbled together. The OP is not an experienced suspension fabricator, which is what he'd have to be to figure that mess out AND fix it so that it rides and handles properly and safely. Then there's still the altitude problem to get the truck to have an attractive stance. He has inherited a complete nightmare with really nice tin sitting on top of it. Been there, done that. Haven't we all...

    EDIT: Looking at the overall truck again I see that the bumper brackets are not coming out of the fenders in the right place. It's my considered opinion that he's got '41 tin sitting on top of a later model pickup truck frame and doesn't know it. That doesn't explain the cobbled up steering but it explains a lot of the rest of this mystery. He needs to make a few local friends who are familiar with '40 Fords and have them look at his truck and figure out what he's got before he goes to making any changes.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2019
    Boneyard51, Kiwi 4d and dirty old man like this.
  20. missysdad1
    Joined: Dec 9, 2008
    Posts: 3,045

    missysdad1
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Yep, as I thought. I missed this tiny little detail when I read this thread the first time. A '47 Ford pickup frame and a '41 Ford pickup frame have absolutely nothing in common. Time for TudorTony to jack up the cherry '41 tin, junk the '47 frame and replace it with a '40 passenger or '41 pickup frame and suspension. Others will work but these would be ideal because they have the right brakes. Sorry, TudorTony, but that's the only right way to deal with your problem.
     
  21. There's been several experienced suspension fabricators chime in
    And that second part well it's not going to happen.

    A rear sump pan would help get some room,
    A 40 frame would move all that stuff around where it's supposed to be
    The problem is nothing, not one thing is where it's supposed to be
     
  22. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 11,191

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    That includes the whole body. It’s on that completely wrong frame.

    Another thing that’s not on or you could say in the right frame is Tony’s mind.

    If you look at his original thread on the truck he was told many times the right solution to his problems with this thing.

    But he won’t or can’t accept and admit what he’s been told repeatedly. :confused:

    I told him the only way I would have bought that truck would have been knowing that I would be doing a frame swap back to a nicely built 35-40 frame.

    As I said instead of accepting that this is what it needs, he basically ignores that and like the dog chasing his tail he’s sure he can catch it :D
     
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  23. Right!
    Even though dynamite is extreme it may be the right thing in this situation
     
    chryslerfan55 and Blue One like this.
  24. posts get deleted here as fast as they come
    Thread is really hard to follow now
     
    Blue One likes this.
  25. missysdad1
    Joined: Dec 9, 2008
    Posts: 3,045

    missysdad1
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Phew! I thought it was just me...

    I can totally identify with the OP on this thread, having bought some truly messed-up cars in the past and enthusiastically avoided doing the major changes necessary in order to turn them into nice cars. You can call it stubbornness if you want, because that's what it is...mixed with inexperience and a flat wallet.

    New Jersey isn't a very big state so perhaps some HAMBer from his area could step up and give him a hand locating a suitable chassis for his project...and injecting some positive influence to get him rolling in the right direction. Sometimes a little bit of hand-holding is all it takes. How 'bout it, HAMBers?
     
  26. You're right, I was thinking the right thing, but wrote the wrong term. That's what I get for late at night replies......... Thanks for the correction!
     
    chryslerfan55 likes this.
  27. X-cpe
    Joined: Mar 9, 2018
    Posts: 1,302

    X-cpe

    I suffer from that too. Fingers won't type what the brain is thinking.
     
    chryslerfan55 likes this.
  28. nailhead terry
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 1,458

    nailhead terry
    Member

    Guys wasn't a 41to 47 cab the same with different front sheet metal and frame with parallel leaf's could someone just changed front sheet metal I bought a 37 ford built in 1965 had a corvair front end put under it drove ok but scrubbed like hell when turned hard
     
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  29. typo41
    Joined: Jul 8, 2011
    Posts: 2,572

    typo41
    Member Emeritus

    Frames went from the X member car frame to latter style ladder frame that was and is still used from 42 on on.
    The Cabs are the same and you 'can' bolt the 40 front sheet metal to the cab, but not when it is on a 42 and up frame.
     
    chryslerfan55 likes this.
  30. TudorTony
    Joined: Jun 2, 2013
    Posts: 223

    TudorTony
    Member
    from NJ

    My thx to the members offering constructive advice. To the usual AH’s who love to BB’s w no good intent DD. Final update for those whose advise helped. Ride runs great after a few mods. Did heat & bend Ackerman arms to get closer to correct geometry. Went w shorter shocks & modified shock supports to allow full travel. Was able to get rims & tires fitting under fender wells achieving satisfactory stance I’m happy w. Have had it over 80 on the highway w no balance or alignment issues. Track strait & smooth & no more wobble! Have won several People’s choice awards over the summer & all complement it. 383 Mopar engine & Torqu-Flite running great, sound great & pretty quick! Have had offers substantially higher than the $13k I paid even w new gas tank, B&M shifter, front end mods, tires, Holley 650 & rims!
     

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