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Technical Steel Building Insulation Question

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by CarQuestions, Aug 7, 2019.

  1. CarQuestions
    Joined: May 24, 2015
    Posts: 85

    CarQuestions

    I have an existing steel building (Z purlin and steel panel sides and roof) in Arizona and it is FRICKIN HOT.

    I bought InsulationStop "Double Bubble Foil Radiant Barrier" http://www.insulationstop.com/double-bubble-foil-insulation.html rolls and I need advice on how to install it.

    First attempt was to install the rolls on the walls and I used Radiant Guard double sided tape https://www.radiantguard.com/collections/insulation-tape/products/double-sided-tape

    The next morning I came in and the radiant barrier rolls had all fallen down...the tape stuck to the walls just fine (I cleaned the steel panel surface with 70 percent isopropyl alcohol) however the tape completely peeled off of the foil inside surface of the radiant barrier.

    Does anyone have a recommendation on a double stick tape that will stick to both the foil and the steel panel surface? This has to work for both the walls as well as the ceiling.

    I see other techniques to retrofit a steel building includes attaching wood furring strips to the purlins with self drilling screws and then stapling up the barrier to the wood strips however that is a significant cost plus it is a huge PITA...

    IF...I have to go with the wood furring strips then I can drill them to the ceiling purlins OK however the walls I do not have purlins and in the case of the walls I would need to glue the wood strips to the side wall panel because I do not want to have to drill through the side wall.

    Ann suggestions/advice/well wishing/moments of silence for me would be most appreciated!!!
     
  2. Rex_A_Lott
    Joined: Feb 5, 2007
    Posts: 1,007

    Rex_A_Lott
    Member

    I can’t answer the question but would suggest you also ask over on the Garage Journal. Good luck
     
  3. henry's57bbwagon
    Joined: Sep 12, 2008
    Posts: 676

    henry's57bbwagon
    Member

    My buddy has a steel building and the instructions show standoffs to attach the roll insulation to. Join garage journal as this topic is covered many times over.
    He is going with sprayfoam.
     
  4. ^^^^ off topic agreement here with Henry. 40 by 40 foot building, 20 ft peak, 14 foot low ... best 800 bucks I ever spent, in that old building.

    Insulating the wall between the other unit, dropped noise by 10 ... and increased my AC efficiency in Texas. Saved 80 to 130 bucks a month. Pretty much paid for itself, over our 8 month summers.

    My other 3 walls and ceiling were already fiberglass batt insulated. No clue why the landlord never insulated between units.

    Cost goes per plane goes down, on bigger structure applications.

    Garage Journal times two !!!!
     
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  5. Doublepumper
    Joined: Jun 26, 2016
    Posts: 593

    Doublepumper
    Member

    I've used these...they are glued on with a type of epoxy:
    download.jpg
     
  6. rusty rocket
    Joined: Oct 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,798

    rusty rocket
    Member

    Try the foil tape that hvac guys use on ducts. Not duct tape but the aluminum stuff.
     
  7. manyolcars
    Joined: Mar 30, 2001
    Posts: 8,255

    manyolcars

    Spray foam is the only correct answer
     
  8. Chicken wire.What Doublepumper showed is available at hvac supply houses.
     
  9. x3 Spray foam
     
    Boneyard51 likes this.
  10. F-ONE
    Joined: Mar 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,082

    F-ONE
    Member
    from Alabama

    1. White or silver roof
    2. Insulated walls... sheet rock is good. Pink roll is OK....sheet rock & pink rolls between the studs....that's about as good as you can get.
    3. Consider a drop ceiling with insulated tile. The drop ceiling can be installed about anywhere as it's supported by wires from the roof above.
    4. A cool bay...(like a large paint booth)...frame out a corner of your shop depending on how large the shop is. Frame up some insulated walls with a drop ceiling have a small AC unit, either portable or window. Use this smaller bay for more technical things. You can use something as simple as a tarp for the bay door. Of course this is not something you run the engine in or paint in.....it's just a place to work without cooling the entire building.
    Another way to do this is like a shop office. Have this cool area to refresh in.
    5. A large fan. Moving air helps tremendously.
    6. A fridge and towels both damp and dry. Have a fridge with water and towels. The damp and even dry cool towels can provide a good deal of refreshment. Replace as needed.
    7. Gable vents and or roof turbines......essential for removing the hot dead air out of the upper roof area.
    8. Shade trees.....these always help.
    9. Irrigation....In Florida I have seen sprinklers set up on metal roofs. The evaporation significantly cools the building. Where water is scarce, gutters and pumps can be used to catch the runoff.....The makes a circular system something to consider with well water or rain barrels.
     
    lothiandon1940 and Texas Webb like this.
  11. I have a 30x40x12 metal building and I too am sweating my nads off, saving up for closed cell spray foam which is like $4k, best price I can find here on the MS Gulf Coast, avg metal temp on my building is 120 degrees during the sunny day, come on fall! temproof.jpg
     
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  12. Oldb
    Joined: Apr 25, 2010
    Posts: 166

    Oldb
    Member

    X4 on the spray foam. My last shop funds were tight so spray foam was out. I set up scaffolding and furred the whole building in. Drilled holes into the purlins and bolted the wood in. Used R-19 and then stapled a very heavy moisture barrier. Made a big difference.

    B
     
    kidcampbell71 and patterg2003 like this.
  13. the oil soup
    Joined: May 19, 2013
    Posts: 159

    the oil soup
    Member
    from Tucson,AZ

    I tried a bubble foil product similar to the one you show and the heat burst the bubbles and rendered it useless in a very short time. (Tucson)
     
  14. '51 Norm
    Joined: Dec 6, 2010
    Posts: 689

    '51 Norm
    Member
    from colorado

    Another vote for spray foam, expensive but worth it.
     
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  15. CarQuestions
    Joined: May 24, 2015
    Posts: 85

    CarQuestions

    Wow...I came to the right place for answers...I make a post and then check it the very next day and lots of good and helpful answers. THANKS!!!
     
    lothiandon1940 likes this.
  16. 70% alcohol has ruined many a paint job prep. The remainder of that 30% is water and oil (rubbing alcohol).
     
  17. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 986

    ekimneirbo
    Member
    from Brooks Ky

    You can buy the cans of spray foam with the needed hose and nozzle for about $600 per tank on ebay. Very simple to use and doesn't take long. I sprayed a thin layer on walls in a paint booth like building to create an air tight membrane kinda thing and then put 6" fiberglass insulation in place and drywalled over that. Best is full foam, but thats really expensive. In the ceiling I just placed fiberglass on top of the drywall. They also make an insulation board (4x8) that I have seen used and looks real nice. Might spray some foam on a flat wall and then stick the insulation board to it. That way the foam acts like glue and holds it in place while also insulating and creating an air tight membrane.

    IMG_1012.JPG IMG_1013.JPG IMG_1010.JPG
     
    mcsfabrication and kidcampbell71 like this.
  18. Roothawg
    Joined: Mar 14, 2001
    Posts: 19,501

    Roothawg
    Member

    Be careful with spray foam and a steel building. We have recently legalized medical Mary J around here and the grow houses are going up like crazy. What they have experienced (this is coming from a guy that installs spray foam for a living) is it rains inside the building if not done correctly. In the winter, if you add heat mixed with the conductivity of the steel and it rains buckets. I rethought the spray foam, just figured it would be my luck that I would end up with that problem.
     
    clem and little red 50 like this.
  19. Not that I know anything about growing marijuana ... :) ... but the conditions for the humidity, are high volumes of water to root ball ... and a respirating plant from its leaves, under a high heat load ... from high pressure sodium lighting. Man made sun light.

    Think of your shower environment, with the door closed, and no fan.

    The water in the root ball mass, eventually forces it's way into the atmosphere of the building, thru its leaves. Positive actions, equal positive reactions.

    So in closing, without conditions of high humidity being met, in a dry building, during temperature variances ... you'll experience nothing that a grow house would.

    The only thing that would change that, would be if you cook or shower in the metal building. Your home has the attic vented usually, to prevent holding moisture, from said showers and cooking, under the deck surface, and preventing rot. ( See those idiots with trash bags on their roof turbines in the winter ? Don't buy their homes ... there's rot in there. Replace decking all the time with those clowns. )

    If any water conditions, such as above, install some venting in your building, a bad ass AC unit, or a nice dehumidifier.

    Some AC units can have a provision for a dehumidifier attachment. AC doesn't usually function during winter conditions. The only reason to install a dehumidifier, would be during cold conditions. Otherwise, during warmer months, the AC unit itself is already a natural dehumidifier.

    Just adding to the knowledge. No disrespect meant.
     
  20. ekimneirbo
    Joined: Apr 29, 2017
    Posts: 986

    ekimneirbo
    Member
    from Brooks Ky

    Not an expert,just an opinion. Metal will draw moisture from the air. Guy I worked with told me he had a metal building here in Ky and said it would get moisture accumulated on the bottom of the roof and drop it in his shop.
    We do get some humid weather here. I have several metal buildings and don't have that problem. All are insulated with fiberglass in the walls. The paint booth I built has the foam as a membrane to prevent air and dirt from being sucked in under the walls. Siliconed the floor and set the wall down on the silicone. Then foamed the walls and sealed them.
    The OP on this thread mentioned living in Arizona, so I don't think he will have a moisture problem, but I could be wrong.... I think that where a person lives might make a difference. Might make a small metal sided box and spray some foam inside on the metal and see what happens in hot or humid weather. Leave one side of the box bare metal, and spray one of those small cans of insulation foam on the other side. Guys up north might see how it reacts in cold damp weather. Thats my best guess.:)
     
  21. Had good luck w the spray foam insulation and mini split AC/heat in my Fathers shop. Its so nice I'd rather drive and hour to his place than even change oil in my sweat shop. No issues with the "rain" Root mentioned. Those grow houses usuallly need good ventilation, I guess now we know why..

    Sent from my SM-J727T1 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  22. Roothawg
    Joined: Mar 14, 2001
    Posts: 19,501

    Roothawg
    Member

    I like the idea of the foam for dust elimination and reduction in drafts. Just not sold on the other issues.
     
  23. rusty rocket
    Joined: Oct 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,798

    rusty rocket
    Member

    I have a 40x40X12 wood framed pole building. I used 1 1/2 high density foam between all perlings and then sealed arould edges with spray foam I then fir'ed the walls to flush out with the posts and then ran r19 fiberglass, I think the walls are somewhere around r 25. The celing is blown in at 16". If I keep the doors shut it stays kool all summer and doesnt take much to heat in the winter.
     
  24. Roothawg
    Joined: Mar 14, 2001
    Posts: 19,501

    Roothawg
    Member

    You are way too knowledgeable about this....
     
  25. nrgwizard
    Joined: Aug 18, 2006
    Posts: 1,155

    nrgwizard
    Member
    from Minn. uSA

    Hey, ekim;
    Hope you are putting a plastic vapor barrier(4-6 mill plastic sheeting) 'twixt the sheetrock n studs/rafter joists. If not, you'll have trouble w/the wall insulation holding moisture, & the foam won't allow it to pass thru. = lots of trouble incl mold issues. Up here in MN, just a stones' throw away from the "Great White Nort", we've seen our share of those issues. Marcus...
     
  26. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 6,308

    73RR
    Member

    Closed cell foam is a vapour barrier by itself (any thickness) and open cell foam reaches the vapour barrier status at about 3". The best part of spray foam is that it absolutley seals the building. It gets into every nook and cranny and keep air movement to zero (for 'that' wall/ceiling section)....doors and windows are just controlled leaks, kinda like a Stromberg 97....
    Closed cell foam is quite hard and will transmit noise easier than the open cell stuff. I have buildings with both and will likely never go back to anything else.

    .
     
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  27. I just got a quote to do the roof only on a steel building. 4300 sq feet and the quote was $18,000. That was for 3.5” of closed cell.
    Too rich for my blood.
    Is that about right or am I getting hosed?
     
  28. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 6,308

    73RR
    Member

    The last roof that I had sprayed was about 2500 sf and 6" thick and similar money so you are in the ball park.

    .
     
    31Vicky with a hemi likes this.
  29. Ok here's the deal 40'x50' shop 14' side walls. 1" closed cell foam in all the corners, wall to ceiling and wall to floor to seal everything up. Then open cell foam 10" on the ceiling and 6" on the walls for R value. The first pic they've already started spraying open cell on the front but if you look closely in the back you will see the closed cell foam along the seams. Cost was about 6 thousand. It works great, and along with 2 Mitsubishi mini splits the place stays cold all summer and warm all winter without having to work hard at all. No issues w moisture or anything else. Makes working in the shop a dream. Hell we were out past midnight saturday while its 104 outside and the shop is 78° the whole time. 123_1.jpeg 20180413_153109.jpeg

    Sent from my SM-J727T1 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  30. How long ago was that sprayed?
     

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