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Technical starter grounding

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Materguru, Mar 6, 2021.

  1. Materguru
    Joined: May 22, 2017
    Posts: 99

    Materguru

    i have posted this question another way but now i know the starter when its engaging is grounding by not springing back. I have a swirl rod that the gear i slung down when power is put to it and i have seen springs that i guess push it back off the flywheel which makes it not ground. its a bendix drive with a spring at the top but my question is what makes the gear come back off the flywheel and become ungrounded. when I would touch the brass stud with VM it would read 3 when push starter now it sparks and doesn't read anything
     
  2. ???

    the starter “pushes out or engages by the solenoid.

    main power on your big lug and a “trigger” or keyed power to the little terminal on the solenoid.

    the bendix or what your calling the spiral spring thing, it was causes the starter to engage and disengage when power is applied to the solenoid.and when power is removed .

    it’s wise to have a ground wire from one of the starter mounting bolts to chassis.

    what engine are we talking about?
    What starter ? Stock ? A/M? Mini ? Gear reduction ?
    How’s it wired ?
    Tuna sandwich ?
    Beer or water ?
     
    rusty valley and Budget36 like this.
  3. Usually hitting the starter with hammer will get it to stop cranking if it is stuck.

    Used to happen all the time when jumping stuff in the used equipment row; thinking low voltage had a hand in it.
     
  4. trevorsworth
    Joined: Aug 3, 2020
    Posts: 948

    trevorsworth
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I have found that a good hearty whack with a hammer will cause many things to stop working.
     

  5. jetnow1
    Joined: Jan 30, 2008
    Posts: 1,903

    jetnow1
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from CT
    1. A-D Truckers

    Know a guy who served 10 years for doing that, his ex was very vindictive.
     
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  6. bchctybob
    Joined: Sep 18, 2011
    Posts: 3,340

    bchctybob
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    It would help to know what engine you’re working with but it sounds like an old Ford starter with a firewall mounted solenoid and the long Bendix drive. Right?
    The starter itself “grounds” through the case/bolts/bellhousing and the cable terminal provides voltage to the windings. The starter button on the dash provides the temporary ground that triggers the solenoid that sends the battery voltage to the starter motor. The starter spins and throws the small gear into engagement with the flywheel. Once the engine starts the starter gear gets mechanically thrown out of engagement on that twisted splined starter shaft. If the starter button sticks or if the solenoid malfunctions the starter may try to stay engaged. A worn starter gear or flywheel may cause the gear to disengage before the engine starts. I may not be understanding what’s going wrong with your setup.
    In the most common GM setup, the solenoid itself pushes the gear toward the flywheel via a lever and I retracts via a big internal coil spring.


    Sent from my iPad using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  7. caper
    Joined: Jun 12, 2009
    Posts: 36

    caper
    Member
    from Cape Cod

    I think we should read "grind" for "ground"
     
    Jibs likes this.
  8. 4ty
    Joined: Dec 11, 2018
    Posts: 209

    4ty

    The spiral "thingy" needs to be lubrication free.
    Paul in CT
     
  9. 2OLD2FAST
    Joined: Feb 3, 2010
    Posts: 3,617

    2OLD2FAST
    Member
    from illinois

    I don't ever recall seeing a factory installed starter ground cable .
     
  10. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 17,445

    alchemy
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Grounding is what electrons do. Grinding is what gears do. Which is your car doing?

    The starter case will be grounded to the block via the mating surface and bolts, which should be grounded to the chassis and battery via thick ground straps.
     
  11. BJR
    Joined: Mar 11, 2005
    Posts: 7,242

    BJR
    Member

    What we have here is a failure to communicate. :eek:
     
    Budget36 likes this.
  12. Materguru
    Joined: May 22, 2017
    Posts: 99

    Materguru

    wow, im terrible at explaining. do the starter ground for a second when it engages the flywheel. its a 32 with an 8ba thats wired like a 32 was, so it has no solenoid. im asking solely about he starter. my starter does not have a spring. what throws it back out of the way of the flywheel when either started or when let off the starter switch. mine also seems to be grounded. can or when a starter goes bad could or does that happen. make more sense. i didnt realize words could be interpreted so differently. sorry
     
    VANDENPLAS likes this.

  13. You are correct, but a lot of vehicle will have a ground cable going from one of the starter mounting bolts to the frame.


    But ...... yeah........ a bit confusing to read, would be nice if the OP responded to our many many questions .
     
  14. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 30,185

    Mr48chev
    Member

    I'm thinking that Materguru does live on the far side of one of the oceans or way way down south.

    Still what he is describing is usually due to a stuck solenoid that has contacts welding themselves to each other or in some cases a broken spring inside certain solenoids.
    Or a stuck starter button or switch for the same reason.
     
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  15. Happydaze
    Joined: Aug 21, 2009
    Posts: 1,213

    Happydaze
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Materguru, the starter engaging with the flywheel doesn't have any electrical impact as far as in know. A 'throw out' starter ( as distint to the later more modern, pre engaged type) usually has a spring at the end which acts like a shock absorber. There is something iirc correctly which assists retraction but mainly this is achieved by the starting engine throwing it out / back. They are liable to stay out, jammed in the starter, for a number of reasons, burrs, crud on the spiral mechanism.

    Chris

    Sent from my SM-T515 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  16. alanp561
    Joined: Oct 1, 2017
    Posts: 1,979

    alanp561
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Your starter looks like this, correct?[​IMG]
     
  17. birdman1
    Joined: Dec 6, 2012
    Posts: 1,305

    birdman1
    Member

    32 no solenoid
     
  18. alanp561
    Joined: Oct 1, 2017
    Posts: 1,979

    alanp561
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    If your car is wired like a 32, do you have a foot operated starter switch? [​IMG]tery.
     
  19. alanp561
    Joined: Oct 1, 2017
    Posts: 1,979

    alanp561
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    What I'm seeing in the Green Book is that solenoids weren't used until 1937.
     
  20. rusty valley
    Joined: Oct 25, 2014
    Posts: 2,916

    rusty valley
    Member

    I think the last time he brought this up it was determined that he has the original 32 type foot starter switch. No solenoid. in a wiring diagram it may be mislabeled as a starter solenoid, but it is a switch really. Also the last time, I thought the ground issue was covered, THE GEAR DOES NOT GROUND THE STARTER ! and once the engine is running faster than the starter, it throws the gear out of the way by use of the coarse threads on the shaft
     
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  21. jaracer
    Joined: Oct 4, 2008
    Posts: 1,307

    jaracer
    Member

    Me either, but most heavy truck starters have a ground stud with a cable going back to the battery pack.
     
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  22. rusty valley
    Joined: Oct 25, 2014
    Posts: 2,916

    rusty valley
    Member

    No such thing as too many grounds. I used to play with WW2 stuff, halftracks and such, and they had ground straps every where. Speaking for the OP here, he should have a battery cable going to the transmission, and to the manual starter switch, foot pedal if its 32 wiring.. starter is bolted to the motor, motor is bolted to the tranny, battery cable also bolted to the tranny, thus the whole blob of iron is grounded. The whole blob on an early ford is then bolted thru the front motor mounts, bolt heads on the water pump, bolt nuts on the frame, so a ground connection there, and on the trans, same thing, stuff is bolted, thus connected to ground. the only exception is if you have a heavily detailed painted motor you may loose connection there, so clean up some bare metal, or do as Mr Vandenplas said, and put on an extra ground strap
     
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  23. rusty valley
    Joined: Oct 25, 2014
    Posts: 2,916

    rusty valley
    Member

    Also, most all the modern shit has a ground strap from body to frame. the old cars did not, they relied on just body bolts etc to make the connection. it usually does, but...again, no such thing as too many grounds
     
    VANDENPLAS likes this.

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