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Split Ring Rim To Beadlock Rim

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Scotch Buzzard King, Jan 30, 2012.

  1. I've got a set of pristine '51 Dodge Powerwagon split ring rims, and I understand these things are dangerous. But as anyone who has owned a WM300 Powerwagon knows, these vehicles aren't easy to find different wheels for considering their unique bolt pattern. So here is my plan: I would like to weld the split ring to the rim and weld a beadlock to the ring. The only thing that would make this work is that my Powerwagon uses tubes in the tires. I've included a picture of the Powerwagon split ring wheel below. What are yall's thoughts?
     

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  2. bobj49f2
    Joined: Jun 1, 2008
    Posts: 1,797

    bobj49f2
    Member

    You have the same problem that the late '40 to '50's Ford truck guys. It won't work, even if you are able to safely weld the pieces together the lip is too high to slip a tire over it. That's the reason the mult-part rims are multi-part. One piece rims have a lower lip to slip the tire over it. The bead on the tire is also too hard to move over the lip.

    As with the Ford, there are alternatives but they are getting harder to find.
     
  3. Mark68
    Joined: Sep 12, 2010
    Posts: 130

    Mark68
    Member

    As with the Ford, there are alternatives but they are getting harder to find.[/QUOTE]

    If the alternatives mentioned above cannot be found,possibly speak to one of the alliance venders that do wheels and see if your rim centers could be put into new 1 piece hoops.Probably not the cheapest way to go though. Mark
     
  4. bobj49f2
    Joined: Jun 1, 2008
    Posts: 1,797

    bobj49f2
    Member

    I forgot about using the centers in an new rim. On the Ford Truck Enthusiasts' site there is a lot of discussions on Widow Maker rims and one of the option is reusing the centers. Do a Google search of www.ford-truck.com using "widow makers" and you'll find the discussions.
     
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  5. pigpen1
    Joined: Nov 9, 2010
    Posts: 75

    pigpen1
    Member

    don"t dodge 1.5 ton motor home wheels have the same pattern ?
     
  6. 201
    Joined: Dec 17, 2002
    Posts: 344

    201
    Member

    If the split ring is as pristeen as the rims, I/E not bent or rotted away at the area where it sits in the rim , why not just use them??? If you don't want to air them up, take it to anywhere that does truck tires and have them put it in a safty cage for good luck. Millions and millions of that style rim where used on big trucks over the years.
     
  7. roadworthy'49
    Joined: Apr 17, 2010
    Posts: 173

    roadworthy'49
    Member


    around here, not even the big rig shops will touch split rim tires, even if they have a cage in the shop. my International has them too, I know the frustration
     
  8. JohnEvans
    Joined: Apr 13, 2008
    Posts: 4,883

    JohnEvans
    Member
    from Phoenix AZ

    If the picture is the style rims you have those are NOT the ones call widow makers. Those split in the center on on the edge. During my days as a semi truck collector I changed dozzens of those split rims ,no big deal if you know what you are doing. Lots of big loaders etc. still use multi piece rims. But as said the ring has to be removeable to change tires.
     
  9. I agree you wont be able to get the tire over the lip
     
  10. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,217

    F&J
    Member

    Agree with John, they are safe, if they are in good shape.

    That type is very safe, because once the tire outer bead is shoved up against the lock ring wheel flange, the ring can't spread out enough to slip over the groove that holds the ring on.

    Whenever looking at split wheels; put the rings onto the wheel without a tire. Then look at every angle to see how well the parts fit together. Looking for: bent or oblonged rings or wheels themselves, and unusual gaps where they should not be.
     
  11. gas pumper
    Joined: Aug 13, 2007
    Posts: 2,951

    gas pumper
    Member

    John and F&J agree with me too.

    All the horror stories are unfounded in my opinion.

    I have worked with these wheels and the big truck style for years. The split lock ring was a good design.
    There was another style that always seemed shakey to me. It had a one piece ring and than a split lock ring that fit into that outer ring and the rim. And they always seemed to take a lot of tapping around while first airing up to get to look right.

    There was another design that had a long entension on the lock ring that slid down behind the bead. I guess these would be very safe, too. But the rust would really hold them together. Real hard to break down even after the bead got broke.

    On small trucks the ones that had a solid lock ring that had to be turned a 1/4 turn to unlock were a real pain in the ass.

    I still got a big can of rim grease. :D

    Frank

    Edit: Just thinking a little more. I think problems come up when people start to think all the rims were the same and mixed up rims and rings. This stuff is not interchangeable. The right parts have to stay together.
     
  12. tooljunkie
    Joined: Oct 18, 2010
    Posts: 209

    tooljunkie
    Member
    from manitoba

    those arent your typical split rims.i had to remove an old military tire from one of these rims,it was a massive undertaking to dismantle it.i wanted to throw the whole works in a fire and burn the damn tire off.
    they wont come apart if you want them to.thats all i have to say about that.
    http://ramchargercentral.com/articl...r-and-install-hummer-double-beadlock-wheels/1

    that will give you an idea on beadlock wheels.theres also tech on just converting wheels to beadlock.
     
  13. gas pumper
    Joined: Aug 13, 2007
    Posts: 2,951

    gas pumper
    Member


    The ones there are called battlefield rims. I think the idea was that they could be unbolted in the field to fix the tire with no tools other than the wrench for the bolts. Probably while still on the truck.
     
  14. bobj49f2
    Joined: Jun 1, 2008
    Posts: 1,797

    bobj49f2
    Member

    Many of the trucks from the 40s and up had the same bolt pattern. IH, Dodge, Ford and Studebaker had the five bolt pattern. Ford had the two piece Widow Makers, I looked at the picture posted again and realized it had the outer snap ring, the Ford rims were made up two solid pieces that separated in the middle. They had a notch that you lined up and twisted 180° to lock. This design was flawed from the beginning.

    SBK, what size wheels are yours? The big trucks rims were 20" rims. The F-2 and F-3 Ford Marmon Herringtons had the same bolt pattern and were 17", I think. There's guy here, and he also posts on the FTE site, truckdog62563 who knows truck wheels. He can tell you what options you have and where you can find places that will work on your rims.
     
  15. when airing split rim tire up, i slide the rims under the arms of my lift. i have also wrapped them with chains, and once set the bucket of my friends machine on top of the rim just in case the ring popped off. i have never thought that anything would happen but better safe than sorry.
     
  16. 296 V8
    Joined: Sep 17, 2003
    Posts: 4,672

    296 V8
    BANNED
    from Nor~Cal

    Truck and equipment mechanic here
    Id keep them the way they are (split but in good shape) or find non split that will work / fit your pattern.
    All the tire shops iv ever delt with will not touch beadlocks but will do splits.

    (beadlocks on our rock crawlers must be done ourselves and it sucks)
     
  17. The true 2 piece rim was used for years, I have a pair on my F600, they are dated 1972. They became a hazzard because of rust & corrosion eroding the the locking area as they aged, and because of improper mix & match of halves, as stated. Improper assembly by inexperianced people and not containing them while inflating them with a lock-on tire chuck is usually the reason for the bad reputation.
    A good tire guy at a good tire shop can knock them down to be checked.
     
  18. truckdog62563
    Joined: Dec 18, 2007
    Posts: 65

    truckdog62563
    Member

    Your rims are called "split ring", not "split rim", and are perfectly safe to use if undamaged and handled properly. They are not the deadly split rim "widow maker" type, technically termed "Firestone RH-5°". Your Power Wagon wheels are Budd products, probably the 16" x 6.5", Budd part #66730, and use a Goodyear "LTS" outer rim design. I have these same wheels on my 1948 Power Wagon (B1PW126). Lock ring wheels were used on all the old flat fender Power Wagons except for those with the "combat rims" as described above. You are correct that the bolt pattern is unique to military spec vehicles. They have a 5 lug x 6 7/8" bolt circle. I've heard of these also used on WWII era IHCs and even on some post war military spec Marmon-Herrington Fords. While no one piece tubeless wheels are commonly available with this bolt pattern, but I've read that there was a special run of them that are now extremely rare. As said above, a custom wheel company could pull your centers and remount them in new tubeless rims. I'll post below a cross section diagram of the Goodyear "LTS" and pictures of the "LTS" stampings on ring and rim. The above posting is correct that mix matching rim and ring designs can be deadly.

    I'd suggest having your wheels serviced by professionals, and call it done. Stu McMillan

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  19. Wow! So much great information. So my wheels are the Budd Product wheels then? And this design isn't the widow maker? I wish I had a photo of the ones that I have handy. I do believe that my wheels are actually the wheels used on the 1941-42 Dodge WC first series before Dodge changed to the beadlocker. My axles are actually an earlier make than what I had originally thought. They are not Korean Era at all but are actually WWII axles just like the ones on the truck picture below (but my wheels aren't like those).
    [​IMG]
    Shit, could of fooled me and did.

    After reading the many different post, hell if the rims are as safe as yall say they are I think I'll keep them. Does anybody have any threads or YouTube videos on how you get that ring off?
     
  20. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 17,147

    gimpyshotrods
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Make them beadlocks, and run Dynabeads. There are several companies out there that sell the rings. Go for it.
     
  21. truckdog62563
    Joined: Dec 18, 2007
    Posts: 65

    truckdog62563
    Member

    Here's an old FTE thread where I linked two OSHA web sites that give good info on safely servicing truck wheels, and on the dangers of mix matching rim/ring designs. To be absolutely sure you have wheels like I posted pics of you'll want to scrape around on the ring to find the markings. Also, on the back/concave side of the wheel itself Budd generally stamped their part number on the rim lip. Normally it's opposite the valve stem. If you find a different part number or ring design marking come back and I'll see if I can look it up for you. I've got a pretty good library of old wheel catalogs. Stu

    http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/686250-multi-part-wheel-safety-osha-documents.html#post5470496
     
  22. I actually believe that the split-rings are safer than the 1-piece rings. The 1-piece rings have to sit just so, if they cock while airing up, they can fly off. I've never had either one go on me, I air them up slowly and watch the ring, give it a poke with a tire iron, or deflate it and set the ring again. With the split ring, there is more margin for error.

    Either way, the ring and rim have to be in good condition. I air mine up with an extended air chuck and slide the tire under the back of my truck as it airs.

    If you still have concerns, you may want to go to a newer 1-piece wheel. The plus of that is that you can use tubeless tires.

    Bob
     
  23. You guys are awesome. Thank you for the info. I'm going back to the drawing board with all this information, and I'll keep yall posted on what I decide to do. Thank you.
     

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