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Spare tire as airbag tank?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 64starfire, Mar 11, 2010.

  1. R Frederick
    Joined: Mar 30, 2009
    Posts: 2,658

    R Frederick
    Member
    from illinois

    Look kindof like this?
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 5,492

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    And then when it's time to use the spare, how's that gonna work? Plus just welding a plate to the front and back of the rim and using it as an air tank is just exaggerating the reason that square tubing shouldn't be used for an air tank, unless it's very thick walled stuff. Just a quick example: If you use a wheel that's 15" diameter, the plate you weld on either side is going to have an area of roughly 177 square inches. At 32psi of pressure the force pushing on each of those two plates is 5664 lbs. Since we're talking about wanting higher pressures here, let's say 100 psi. Now you've got 17,700 lbs of force trying to push those plates apart. It's going to take some pretty thick metal to keep it from bowing. I don't want anything like that within 100 yards of me, let alone sitting in my trunk. That's why air tanks are almost universally round, with spherical ends.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2010
  3. 64starfire
    Joined: Apr 16, 2009
    Posts: 37

    64starfire
    Member

    Ok, guess people didn't read all the way through my posting. Start with regular air tank but small, may be able to use a 4 gallon pancake tank mounting in the middle of the spare anyhow. From the tank port there is a regulator to regulate the pressure to the tire i.e. 90 psi? for a load E trailer tire (size permitting). That goes to a Y which is connected to a mini ball valve which is tapped into the rim. On the other side of the Y is a line back to the tank with a check valve.

    I'm not trying to excede the max PSI of a tire...I know that! I have to buy a new spare rim/tire anyhow because I'm converting to disk brakes and the stock 14" rim won't fit. Why not kill two birds with one stone.

    Odds are the spare rim will be 8 lug....use an adapter. When I need the spare, I close the ball valve, remove the Y and use spare. Sure, there's going to be a little ball valve on the wheel going round and round, but it's just temporary.
     
  4. JAWS
    Joined: Jul 22, 2005
    Posts: 1,846

    JAWS
    Member


    Really? You are serious?

    Ok, I'll bite.....What is the vehicle you are planning on doing this too? Is it the 64 starfire your name indicates?
     
  5. 39 All Ford
    Joined: Sep 15, 2008
    Posts: 1,531

    39 All Ford
    Member
    from Benton AR

    After all of this, the thing I come away with is

    WHY?

    Seems like a lot of bull shit for little or no return.

    We need to ask why.......
     
  6. junk yard kid
    Joined: Nov 11, 2007
    Posts: 2,719

    junk yard kid
    Member

    if you want two uses in one there is the old tube bumper as an air tank trick. Havent ween anyone use thier frame as the air tank. could be cool, could be problemattic
     
  7. notebooms
    Joined: Dec 14, 2005
    Posts: 2,075

    notebooms
    Alliance Member

    you'll want more than 115psi in your tank and, even so, i dont see any need to have a 115psi tire on a custom. i dig the thinking outside the box though....

    oh, and to the guy who said the tank will see higher pressure when you hit a bump..... it really shouldnt, as you should really have solenoids isolating the tank from the bags.

    use creativity to fab and hide. even better........ leave the bags for groceries and go traditional hydro-- those reservoirs are smaller and look better :)

    -scott noteboom
     
  8. 64starfire
    Joined: Apr 16, 2009
    Posts: 37

    64starfire
    Member

    39 All Ford-...WHY? Why do we take old pieces of junk, dump thousands of dollars into these cars that are loud, "ugly", ride like crap, guzzle gas and spew nasty crap into the air? Because we can and like it.

    Why? Clean install "where's your air tank, you've got bags?".."Oh well here....let me show you...." "holy shit, I've thought of doing that but....." And hydros....please, if I wanted to fill my trunk full of batteries and pumps, and leak fluid everywhere, then ride like I cut the springs in half, then sure!

    Why? Why install a tank, when there's already a tank on the car. Why take up trunk space that I don't need to take up. Why have this ugly black 'thing' in my trunk, or another chrome thing I have to polish.

    Why? because I like doing shit that other people don't do. Every MoFo has a Impala, mustang, chevelle, whatever, and what did I buy? A grandpa muscle car. I love it when people ask "what is it?"...it makes people realize there are other vehicles out there than the run of the mill muscle car. WTF else do you think are in the magazines? Different, outside the box stuff. Why do people buy those magazines? Because that shit's in there!

    Jeezus, now you guys make me want to do it even more just so I can say Yes it works, or no, I've already done it and it doesn't. Not one person has gone on here and said "yes, i have done it, and it didn't work", or "it would work if you did this".

    Maybe I should just keep all my ideas to myself (not that I have that many) and let you guys piddle around the garage copying all the same ol BS.

    Whew..ok i'm done
     
  9. Squablow
    Joined: Apr 26, 2005
    Posts: 15,044

    Squablow
    Member

    Just to add a bit of tech to the conversation, my '64 Olds is bagged, my 5 gallon tank pressures up to 135 and that's just barely enough to get the front end up. I really need a bigger tank or more PSI (or both) to work properly. So keep in mind the volume and pressure of air you'll need to operate the system in this car.
     
  10. Tman
    Joined: Mar 2, 2001
    Posts: 34,117

    Tman
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Good, you have just shown that you really don't get it. I won't go into details but every one of your points is rediculous. Including calling a 64 Starfire a "grandpa car"
     
  11. ironfly28
    Joined: Dec 22, 2003
    Posts: 968

    ironfly28
    Member
    from Orange, CA

    the trick isn't the tire it's the tube. you can find aircraft tubes that are in 13-18 inch diameters and rated for as high as 300lbs..they have the srcew in shrader valve. they aren't cheap. you wouldn't want to run max pressure at 50 psi Under I'd say. I imagine it would get hot in the trunk so if you stuffed it in a bias ply with some pie cuts on the bottom you'd allow for expansion. I've never used a tire for airbags but I have used one for running air tools when having to do maintenace at Tallil.
     
  12. 64starfire
    Joined: Apr 16, 2009
    Posts: 37

    64starfire
    Member

    Thanks for the tip Iron fly but if I can't actually run it like a spare, then I might as well just put in a regular tank, would take up the same amount of space.

    So I finally found a forum that's just about airbags and their systems. I posted on there if a 90 psi 'sub tank' would even do any good. See if they can shine any light on the subject.

    And 135psi to lift the front? From what I've been reading that sounds high would ride like crap. What size bags are you running?
     
  13. yardgoat
    Joined: Nov 22, 2009
    Posts: 724

    yardgoat
    Member

    I used a spare tire for a air brush but only had 30psi in tire.Some 4x4 trucks have big 6in dia bumpers that are used as air tanks.Tire air tank,only for small cfm airbrush or other realy small device.Find a tank.....................YG
     
  14. SDhotrod
    Joined: Oct 11, 2008
    Posts: 596

    SDhotrod
    Member

    Man, I laughed so hard I'm pretty sure I have a new skid mark on my tighty whiteys.
     
  15. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 5,492

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    OK, what I'm coming up with here is that you're suggesting taking an aircraft innertube rated at 300PSI, sticking it into a BIAS PLY TIRE WITH PIE CUTS, AND PUMPING IT UP TO 250PSI (50 PSI under rated max)? If my interpretation of your suggestion is correct, please let me take out a life insurance policy on you, with me as the beneficiary.

    P.S. It won't be hot in the trunk, 'cause when this thing comes apart the deck lid is going to be missing from the car, and there will be plenty of air circulating......
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2010
  16. Squablow
    Joined: Apr 26, 2005
    Posts: 15,044

    Squablow
    Member

    It has regular old 2500lb Firestone bags in it, the old style that everyone used to use. The 135 psi is what my tank has to fill to in order to pick the front end up off of the ground, not what the bags have to have in them.

    The point I was trying to make is that if your "tank" is going to have a max PSI of 100 lbs, you're going to need a shitload of volume to pick the car up off of the ground. My 5 gallon tank can barely do it with 135 PSI in it.

    Also, just as an extra note, the cups I used were cut down ones from a 1992 Chevy Caprice, and they were perfect once we took a bit of height off of them. They were simple enough to make as well, but we bolted everything in place without mods with the Caprice parts, keep that in mind if you are shopping for parts. My car is a 98 but I would think those pieces would work on your car as well.
     
  17. 39 All Ford
    Joined: Sep 15, 2008
    Posts: 1,531

    39 All Ford
    Member
    from Benton AR

    I don't know diddly about air ride on cars, but I am about 99.9% that any volume of air will not make up for insufficient pressure to lift the car.

    I THINK that if it takes 135 PSI to lift the car, a million gallon tank at 125 PSI still would not lift the car.

    In this instance volume and pressure serve different purpose, and while one may compliment the other to one degree or another, they do not interchange.
     
  18. Hooligan63
    Joined: Mar 1, 2009
    Posts: 1,343

    Hooligan63
    Member

    So,you want to use a tire huh? Well,here's some things to consider:
    1: How are you going to run your valves and lines?
    2: A Compressor kicks on at about 115 psi in the tank,so your tire idea is automatically thrown out the door
    3: Air ride tanks are built to handle up to 220 PSI comfortably,a tire is not
    4: How do you plan to make sure the tire seals as an air tank?
    5: What are you going to do when you need a spare tire?
    6: Most air ride pressure switches don't shut the compressors down until the tank pressure reaches around 180
    7: If it was safe and possible,don;'t you think someone would be doing it by now,considering air ride had been experimented with ever since the late 30's and was put in to use in 1957 on consumer available vehicles?
    8: You still need to take in to consideration how much PSI of air pressure it will take to lift your car,I doubt your tire tank will come close to it.

    Just some things to ponder.

    I say stick with air tanks,or,you can build a tank using the tire as a mold,form the tank to fit inside the tire between the rim and tire,but it's easier just to buy a tank(or two tanks depending on your application)
     
  19. ironfly28
    Joined: Dec 22, 2003
    Posts: 968

    ironfly28
    Member
    from Orange, CA

    Don't be so dramamtic. A 15 inch front tire on a KC-135 is filled to 155 psi. It goes from less than 20 below zero to in excess of 200 degrees F in a matter of secomds it also help supports an aircraft that weighs 330,000 lbs loaded. and you know what?.they don't explode..unless you pump WAYYYY too much air in them

    The only problem I see with using it as an air storage vessel is making sure it can expand, hence the chopped up tire to cover the tube....it's an interesting concept and I think it has potential to work.

    sure,there is methods that are already proven to make airbags work but that doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to think outside of the box and excercise his mind. This experiment could lead to something really cool that nobody has thought of yet.





     
  20. how about you just buy a stainless steel 5 gallon air tank from me and your all set!
     

  21. Another thing to consider is that these high pressure airplane tires are not filled with "air." They're filled with nitrogen. Doesn't contract and expand with the difference in temperature on the ground and at altitude. It probably doesn't matter much to this tread, though.

    Good luck with whatever you do. Keep us updated and let us know how it goes.
     
  22. 39 All Ford
    Joined: Sep 15, 2008
    Posts: 1,531

    39 All Ford
    Member
    from Benton AR


    Wow, there are some statistics here that I am sure are right, but there is so much wrong here.

    1. If excess pressure is encountered as a result of heating, this excess air can be bled off... (as if this would be a major issue, I doubt it.)

    2. If any tire is cut away in such a manner to not support the inner tube, the inner tube WILL blow out, even an aircraft inner tube rated at 300 psi. ALL inner tubes require 100% support.

    3. I agree, within the confines of reasonable pressure a "tire tank" could work, but why? IMO this is a cumbersome way of making a simple thing harder with little or no up side at all. So some folks might think it is "cool", others might think it is not so cool... Even if such a thing makes it to "trend status", some trends just suck.

    4. The OP wants to be able to use the tire as a spare also, ok, so what to do with the bags in the meantime?

    5. Never Mind, I refrain.
     
  23. ironfly28
    Joined: Dec 22, 2003
    Posts: 968

    ironfly28
    Member
    from Orange, CA

    I know some guys that run dry nitrogen in their bags. it seems to be the way to go in my opinion and yes aircraft tires are filled with nitrogen (usually)

    I just figured I'd throw out some ideas that support this guys theory. I'm no airbag guru.. I genearally like my cars a little off the ground.
     
  24. What popped (pun intended) into my mind is how much would the tire be pressure cycled?
     
  25. Motorbreath
    Joined: Nov 14, 2006
    Posts: 539

    Motorbreath
    Member

    I may not be much help, but what about a modified pancake tank with a spare tire mount tacked on the top of it recessed into the floor of the trunk so as to sit the tire in the oem spot but still conceal the tank? would be fairly easy to do and retain your spare and your air for the bags. You could then remove the flat and still have air to lift the car.
     
  26. Hooligan63
    Joined: Mar 1, 2009
    Posts: 1,343

    Hooligan63
    Member

    But how many ply is that aircraft tire compared to a conventional car tire? What is the cost of the aircraft tire compared to that of a $75 air ride tank? I don't think you bothered to read my post at all,or anyone else's for that matter. Two 5 gallon air ride tanks will run you about $150,which is the equivalent of a mid grade new 15" tire.
     
  27. 64starfire
    Joined: Apr 16, 2009
    Posts: 37

    64starfire
    Member

    Ok I may return to this idea later, but for now I think I'm going to use two 5 gallon tanks and try the best method to conserve space.

    A couple of notes that were brought up recently that the posters must've missed earlier in the thread.

    Will run 1 tank, and 1 tire. The tire would just be a resavoir, so when I need to use the tire, I would close a small ball valve thats mounted on the rim, remove the line and close the regulator all the way. Would be enough to get me where I'm going.

    Over pressurizing the tire-Regulator out of the main tank to the tire, check valve on the return side from the tire.

    Compressor turning on at 110 PSI-how low does the tank pressure actually get? Sure the switch turns on at 110, but if actual tank pressure drops to 60, then the tire 90 psi would refill the main tank until equalization (75 psi?) thus making the recovery time faster. But by how much? Possibly not enough to make it worth it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2010
  28. NO one is alive to tell about it. It is pretty messy
     
  29. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 5,492

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Dramamtic? I'm not being that, nor am I being dramatic. The information I provided was intended to educate folks who have never pumped up an innertube when it is not constrained by a tire and rim. They are NOT capable of containing their rated pressure UNLESS they are inside the tire mounted to a rim, and that tire & rim must also be rated for the appropriate pressure. If you seriously think that you can put one of these tubes into a shredded (pie cut) bias ply tire and pump it up to 155psi (you're changing your numbers all the time, I'm trying to understand that logic as well, but am struggling) then go ahead and do it. I'm still willing to do the insurance policy thing.......

    http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2009/05/truck_driver_from_adams_killed.html
     
  30. Hooligan63
    Joined: Mar 1, 2009
    Posts: 1,343

    Hooligan63
    Member


    The tank pressure drops down to around 30 PSI at times.
     

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