Technical Something interesting I was reading on engine oil.

Thanks for the input. Good to hear from someone who is not a salesman. Maybe it is my age or his (my grandpa's) but my grandpa taught me from a very early age to never take advice on what is best from a salesman. In my experienced it has been good advice.

There was a phrase in the article that probably no one noticed. You use higher ZDDP content during breakin. Not necessarily during the life of the engine. I still use breakin oil and then switch after breakin. But I learned that during the stone age (20th century) of engine building. LOL

 

Eh, I don't think I'd use it. As you posted, the danger is in the additives settling out of suspension after sitting all that time. Ask Valvoline and it's guaranteed they'll tell you No, don't use it. But they don't want the liability from telling you to use it, and they'd like to sell you some new oil too! Still, if it's that old personally I'd dump it in the waste oil bin and start fresh.

Good question. How much oil does it burn? In 2004 - 2006 I participated in a study using a fleet of fuel delivery trucks in So Cal hauling fuel to gas stations to see what kind of effect lowering the amount of sulfated ash in the oil had on the exhaust system components. The industry was in the process of developing the next engine oil specification, and the engine manufacturers wanted a limit placed on ash. Ash in the oil is a result of metallic compounds like Zinc (and others). It was a very extensive test where we fitted each truck with a brand new diesel exhaust catalyst and particulate filter, which were all weighed on a very sensitive micro-scale to arrive at an exact weight for each one. We also fitted temp gauges and back pressure sensors into the exhaust system with data loggers to keep track of all the data generated; and we also installed automatic oil top off systems that measured the oil level in the pan and topped them off when the oil level dropped to a set point, and it recorded the amount of add oil used. Part of the fleet used the regular fleet engine oil, the other part of the fleet used a special low ash oil (low ZDDP) that was developed to meet new limits that were under consideration at the time. The trial ran for about 18 months to 2 years, each truck ran a specified number of miles. As each truck completed the mileage they were brought in and the dpf's were removed and weighed again, and the increase in weight, which indicated ash accumulation, was recorded. And then we gathered all the data that was generated for each truck and compiled it all into a report. The point of the test was to see if reducing the sulfated ash level in the oil resulted in less ash accumulation in the dpf and less increase in back pressure. What we found out was that the amount of oil consumed had far more effect on this than the amount of ash in the oil. This was presented to the industry prior to the approval of the next diesel engine oil specification (CJ-4), but the industry was already headed towards putting the chemical limits in place and really didn't want to change direction at that point in the game.

Anyway, that was a long row to hoe to get to the point that, if the engine is tight and not burning any oil, then there is a good chance that it will not poison the catalytic converter or the O2 sensors. But if it is an oil burner, than the higher levels of phosphorus will likely cause problems. I just wanted to give you the details on why I say that.

 

Thank you Blues4U for the excellent information.


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Thanks Root and Blues. I've used Rotella and VR-1 in my flathead before. Usually with a small bottle of ZDDP additive in the spring when I change the filter. Looks like I will continue with the Rotella T4 and ZDDP, but forget the more expensive VR-1. And never any STP honey.

 

Maybe while we have all the oil experts here, could you tell us what Marvel Mystery Oil does in the crankcase? When (if ever) should it be used?

 

I know it's a Mystery but what is it made of? I smell cinnamon when I pour it. It could be all those years of JP4 and 8 have burned my senses.

 

Well this sent me off on an interesting search for info, there's quite a bit of it out there. If you can trust the internet, it looks like MMO is about 70 - 80% napthenic mineral oil, 20 - 30% mineral spirits (paint thinner), with some very small percentages of Oil of Wintergreen (for the scent), a little boron and phosphorus and some dichlorobenzenes, oh and some red dye. Basically, it is an oily solvent. It will loosen up varnishes and lacquers and other hard deposits and help to remove them. This makes sense with all of the old guys saying how it help to free up sticky valves in old flathead V8's. But there is a downside, napthenic mineral oil and mineral spirits have a very high volatility, and a very high rate of oxidation at very low temperatures. Basically, IMO it may help to free sticky valves or other deposits, but it will likely cause the oil to oxidize quickly and lead to even more deposits. If I had an old engine that I knew had some issues with varnish and sticky valves or lifters, maybe stuck piston rings, I might give it a try, combined with a short drain interval. A good detergent oil will work to clean up a dirty engine too, without the nasty side effects. Maybe dose the engine with MMO, run it hard to get it good and hot and let the MMO loosen up the junk, then drain it out and flush it with good oil. Maybe do it a couple of times. Better would be to drop the oil pan and remove the intake manifold and maybe the front cover and clean it up as good as you can that way first. I've done that before on a filthy engine in an old IH pickup.

But for every day use in an engine with no issues, no way I'd use it. No need to. Modern engine oils have detergents and dispersants to do that job. Adding MMO into good oil in a good engine will only dilute the quality of the oil IMO.

 

My understanding is the Wintergreen isn't used for the odor, it's a very good penetrant for wicking the solvent into where it needs to go. It's a kind of synthetic wintergreen - methyl salicylate. Marvel's does work for dissolving gum and carbon, the cause of stuck rings & lifters, or used regularly in the fuel to prevent them.

 

OK then, IMO MMO is a NOGO.

 

Huh? It's just the stuff for stuck rings & ticking lifters, preventing stuck valves, bent pushrods from varnished fuel. It definitely has its uses. It may not work in theory, but it works in real life.

 

We use MMO on our propeller rods. The mfg actually recommends it.

 

How about putting it in the gas tank instead of the crankcase? My engine doesn't have any stuck rings or valves. It doesn't even have 10,000 miles on it yet.

It's a flathead with the split guides, so I was thinking the MMO would be good for those.

 

I have used very old stock oil and indeed saw a small amount of clear "sediment" on the bottom of the bottle which I assumed was some additives that had settled out over the years. I left the last few ounces of oil in the bottle and shook it like crazy to get the additive deposits loosened before pouring into the engine.
I think the additives will fully mix once run for a few minutes in a warmed up engine.

So if I had a five gallon pail of NOS motor oil, I would stir it up with one of those paint mixers run on a drill motor, then fill up my engine with it.

 

LOL I knew an old timer that used Marvel mystery oil in everything he owned. On breakin he dumped it in his fuel and his crankcase. Then after break in he always used it in his oil. he swore by it. His engines ran as long as anyone else's but he claimed that they went farther and ran better. it worked for him.

Snake Oil salesmen could sell snow cones in Alaska. It is how they earn their living. Sometimes common belief trumps logic I am afraid.

 

I agree with you. But in this instance, the shit really works and works really well for what it's designed to do. You don't believe it works to quiet sticky lifters or remove carbon & gum from rings?

It's basically a penetrating oil & solvent in a light machine oil. Perfect for the purpose. I'd argue that folks who dismiss it simply as "snake oil" without ever having tried it are just as guilty as "common belief" over logic. Yeah, there's some advertising wankery involved, but what else is new. Everybody is a skeptic till they have nothing left to lose. Like I said, it definitely has its uses.

It's banned in California too, can't be all bad.

 

Wrong. It's not banned in California.

 

I read once on a diesel page (populated by guys that are REALLY serious about their oil) about someone who was trying to vet the accuracy of the oil life monitor of the OT newer Duramax's. They'd run an oil for a certain amount of time and send it off to Blackstone for the analysis, and he did it a number of times with, IIRC, different oils and different additives. Again, IIRC, conventional Rotella 15W-40 had high grades for lubricity and longevity (and the oil life monitor was pretty freaking accurate too). MMO only served to decrease the lubricity, as did all the other additives.

That said, I always mix a little in with the gas I burn in my tractor, an old Kohler single cylinder. Even if it has no real mechanical benefit, it sure does smell good...

 

Here's a couple of videos that are weird: Were oils from "back in the day" better ? wait till you see the chemical breakdown.

 

I have always ATF for sticky lifters.

I have never really known the makeup of marvel. In my mind I think because of the color of it that it was just ATF. I know that I have always been wrong about it and I am sure that I have always known that, but well you know brains work in odd ways.

 

Probably a better option than MMO. At least it's made with high quality base oil that won't oxidize and foul the rest of the oil in the sump.

 

OK, well, give it time comrade, give it time. Trust me, they are working on it.

 

In California Bill's Flathead book from 1951, they used a common and popular oil additive in a new race engine (flathead). He did not name the additive.
Well, that engine failed. He said sometimes engines just fail. He did not directly blame the additive but he said he would never use it again.

 

Bum Dope on Valvoline VR-1 being expensive. Auto Zone routinely has it on sale for under $5/QT.

 

Redline is in all my semi-serious toys.
Mobil 1 is in my 405,000 mile DD 1992 Suburban whose engine has never been worked on.
I'm not rich enough to buy cheap stuff.

 

LOL I have had that problem with a certain oil additive in my time. I have known lots of people who have used the additive in question and loved it but I have never used the same additive that the engine in question didn't come apart. Go figure.

 

Here's some..."light" reading on oil testing...
Ya have to really dig into this to understand it all.

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/

Mike

 

Can you give us the executive summary?

 

Occasionally I drop a few ounces of diesel fuel in my gas tank as a top end lube. Am I risking anything?

 

I dunno, but I know chicks who'd kill for hair like that. Are you a Breck Girl, or Alberta VO5?