Register now to get rid of these ads!

Technical So school me on the B & M 727 Torqueflite of yesteryear.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 34Larry, Jul 4, 2019.

  1. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,059

    34Larry
    Member

    Okay I'm aware of how stupid this sounds since I've been driving one now for a couple of years, but mine is coming back to me after rebuilding next week and I need to know that I do it right and don't damage it again with my ignorance.
    I have known of and heard about these since the time they came into being, (I guess).
    It came as a package deal with the 331 Hemi I bought, but really had zero knowledge of how they needed to be driven. First time out with the car, it of course would hardly move the car in "Drive", (had the stall reworked after that first time on the test stand). and so I learned quickly it needed to be shifted down into 1st or 2nd, then into 3rd, (D). Okay got it and loved it, and still do. Well I've l have gained more knowledge sense then and I have a post here describing the blow-up and resulting tare down of my car to get at it. Iv'e become aware of the so called "kickdown" need if the rebuild is to be done with the stock valve body, and of the "manual valve body" and which is/was in my B&M.
    I am retaining the manual valve body (and kickdown need), because I, (can I say "love" and still retain my manly image ?), shifting this hot rod.
    So there was input on that thread about a couple of the above mentioned things and thanks for that you guys.
    So it is coming back next week and put back in the car and the rebuilding of the car from the tare-down accomplished soon I hope.
    Are there any in's and out's I need to be aware of when getting behind the wheel again, and what are they and how do I deal with them? Must I start out in 3rd every time or is it okay to start out in 2nd with out damaging the trans, things such as that. Any info for this "B&M " dummy:rolleyes: will be appreciated to the max, I assure you and thank you. :D
     
  2. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,059

    34Larry
    Member

    Absolutely astounding, 24 hours and not one answer. :rolleyes: Have I asked something that can not be answered on HAMB,:eek: or...........is the indifference in asking such a stupid (on my part), question that it isn't worth wasting time on, or is there no knowledge by the vast multitudes of "car guys" who are so knowledgeable on this site, mmmmmmm?? OR..........................................could it be that after being here for some time now and pushing the envelope just a little with my non-HAMB friendly 34, that your tired of my blathering and so my question is chosen to be ignored.? I'm going to guess none of the above is fact, and that no one knows the answer, which could be the case, I will get the answers from the great guys a Sea-Tac Transmission and post those answers if asked to do so. :D:)
     
  3. greybeard360
    Joined: Feb 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,392

    greybeard360
    Member

    If it is full manual, no kickdown required.
    If full manual you start out in 1sr, shift to 2nd, then to 3rd... Why would you start out in 3rd and downshift it?

    Do not do a burnout in first!! As soon as the tires bite... Instant destruction!! Do not downshift to first after you are moving. Doing so can tear up a lot of parts including the case when the rear sprag gives up.
     
  4. 4tford
    Joined: Aug 27, 2005
    Posts: 1,601

    4tford
    Member

    what greybeard said. I do take off in 2nd gear sometime.
     
    Register now to get rid of these ads!

  5. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,059

    34Larry
    Member

    "Why would you start out in 3rd and downshift it"?
    Thanks GB, :D, I only did that the first time, (no down shift) I drove it thinking it was a normal automatic, not understanding the B&M auto. Sure appreciate your input on this. I assume then since there is as I figured no need for the kickdown that if need be, I can drop it back in to second from third but never into first just as you cautioned.
     
  6. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,059

    34Larry
    Member

    4tford, thank you. I'm going to confirm with the trans shop that starting out in 2nd will not hurt the trans.
     
  7. BadgeZ28
    Joined: Oct 28, 2009
    Posts: 1,011

    BadgeZ28
    Member
    from Oregon

    mashing the gas in high gear puts a heavy load on the trans if you don't shift it down to 2nd at the same time. Get in the habit of shifting down rather than lugging the motor down while in 3rd. On a stock 727 there are two selector levers on the same shaft. One for the shifter and the other for the kickdown linkage attached at the carb. My guess is it would work with your manual valve body.
     
  8. Did the transmission shop give you a reason for failure diagnosis?
     
  9. Black_Sheep
    Joined: May 22, 2010
    Posts: 1,071

    Black_Sheep
    Member

    Starting in 2nd won’t hurt the trans. Like graybeard said, do burnouts in 2nd
     
  10. radarsonwheels
    Joined: Dec 15, 2006
    Posts: 191

    radarsonwheels
    Member
    from Philly

    The stock 727 has two versions of low gear- in “D”rive the governor tells the trans to downshift to the lowest gear when it senses the output shaft stops spinning (stop sign). Then when you take off chrysler calls that gear “breakaway low”. The one way sprag is doing all the work of holding the drum to make 1st gear. Beware- if you have a load on the drivetrain (traction) the sprag rollers are locked into their grooves. BUT if you spin then get back on the gas the rollers can float then slam locked again which beats on them and can cause failure.

    In selected 1st gear (again, stock valvebody) the drum is held by the sprag AND a band so it’s much safer. You still want to shift to 2nd immediately (then 3rd/drive if you want doesnt matter) before stopping a burnout. Then it will be safe for your trans.

    A 727 manual valvebody can be “low band apply” or not. It’s the difference between the two scenarios above and if the band is applied you will have engine braking in 1st. So if yours is LBA don’t shift to 1st at 150mph. And if not don’t hammer on & off the gas in 1st.

    The ‘kickdown’ is actually the ‘throttle pressure lever’ the little shaft that comes up out of the middle of the gear selector shaft. On late model 727s it actually does give part throttle kickdown but for full manual it is either disconnected or pinned back. You don’t need it to control shift points but you don’t want it to engage clutches softly.

    I run a transgo tf2 kit in my 727. It allows manual or automatic shifting with engine braking in 1 & 2. Nice middleground for a stoplight brawler.

    Good luck with it
     
    Ned Ludd, 4tford and loudbang like this.
  11. radarsonwheels
    Joined: Dec 15, 2006
    Posts: 191

    radarsonwheels
    Member
    from Philly

    Oh and I forgot the fun part- if your sprag lets go it can make the cast iron front drum spin multiples of crank speed and blow up like a hand grenade. A lotta folks swap them for steel ones or upgraded sprags (with more rollers “bolt in” is not an upgrade just a fix for beat knurling on the race) or both. Especially if you rev over 5000.
     
  12. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 44,275

    squirrel
    Member

    That's a pretty good detailed answer....but unfortunately the summary is "we don't know", because as mentioned, there are different ways to build a valve body for these transmissions, and we don't have enough information to know exactly what you have.

    When I built the 727 for my Almost Funny car, I used a TransGo TF3 kit, set up for manual shift, but with the TV linkage installed and working. I'm thinking about pinning it back when I go through it soon. I also added the good drum and "sprag", and when I do burnouts I put it in manual 3rd gear (the car has enough power to easily spin the tires in high gear), and it has a Kevlar transmission shield.

    When driving, I start in low gear, then shift to second, then third, then back down to whatever is appropriate if needed, or neutral when I come to a stop.
     
    31Vicky with a hemi likes this.
  13. Anytime you do a burnout in any trans with a sprag and it's not in high gear, you will probably destroy the sprag. That includes Lenco's also. I f it was my car, I would always use it as a manual trans, take off in 1st, ect.
     
  14. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,059

    34Larry
    Member

    No not yet 31V.W/ hemi. I did see all the parts last time I was there. Older guy from the era of this trans working on it and he showed me many parts with deep groves in them. I'm pretty pleased with him and the owner, "Dave" :) who called last week to say it would most likely be ready on Monday next week. Also informed me to check fluid level in neutral not park as I have been doing.
     
  15. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 4,457

    sunbeam
    Member

    The 727 manual shift plate kit from Chrysler flipped the gear pattern D became first and first became drive
     
  16. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,059

    34Larry
    Member

    Wow, oh wow!!! How very nice that you all give such great info! I appreciate it so much, thank you.
    HAMB is the best!!!!
    Burn outs won't be very high on my list. :eek: :D
    The day this adventure started I had been out for awhile letting my friends at Advanced Auto parts take pictures of the new dual quad Eelelbrock AVS2 carbs and the car its self. It was a hot day here in the low 90's and the engine was staying right at 180. I started home and was alone at light on a two lane and decided to see how the carbs worked out. Started out in 3rd, hit 2nd at around 4K or 4.5K (I only glanced at the tack very briefly ), and suddenly the back end wanted to be up where the front end was. It had never done that in the 2 years or so of being on the road, and I really puckered my backside with that maneuver.:eek::eek::eek: That also pretty much did the trans in. It was shifting very hard, slow to respond in 2nd, but drove out in 1st ok.
    It always banged real hard, from 3rd, to 2nd, if I lifted on the throttle, but when staying on it, it didn't and it most often left a little patch of rubber for the next guy to see. Extremely anxious to ride that horse again, but no burn out planned or desired. To costly for this old boy, and way to damned hard getting out and back in.
    Thanks again everyone. :):):)
     
  17. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 4,457

    sunbeam
    Member

    2nd gear hits hard with a manual set up the engine was ask to add around 2000 rpm Kind of like neutral starts
     
    loudbang likes this.
  18. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,059

    34Larry
    Member



    I'm a little dense this morning I guess. I don't understand this part of what you wrote, Sunbeam.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  19. sunbeam
    Joined: Oct 22, 2010
    Posts: 4,457

    sunbeam
    Member

    From post 16 it sounded like you were in 3rd gear at 4000 to 4500 and shifted to 2nd gear which would make the engine try go to 6000 to 6500 rpm with Torqueflite gearing
     
    loudbang likes this.
  20. That’s what it sounds like to me,,,,

    However///
    1st is low gear
    2nd mid gear
    3rd is high gear Where I come from...
    and when taking off we start in low gear and up shift. Around here we also don’t start off in high gear then down shift.
     
    sunbeam and loudbang like this.
  21. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,059

    34Larry
    Member

    Update.
    Well the day has finally arrived to bring my almost new 727 Torqueflite home to meet its new partners in the 34. Got the call yesterday to pick it up this morning, and that the case had split at one of the bolt locations for mounting the main pump. Luckily they had one for another $100.00 so by-by to the old one with the welded case. I did a quick trip to the shop to confirm the damage and to see all the new guts of the rebuild. Damn near every part is new, in fact all parts ARE new. Learned that the converters (4) bolts are spaced different, even though they appear to be symmetrical. Barry is so knowledgeable about these monsters and offered that there is a small hole in the geared ring it bolts to and to mount it with the drain plug 180 degrees opposite that hole, (it will only go on one way of course.) He also said one qt. in the converter, 4 qts. in the case, start the engine, check how much many more qts. to add and that's it. Pretty spendy to be sure, (could have bought a new trans from Summit w/o the converter for less). but.............................................
    Oh yeah, no hole in the geared ring, (what ever its called), so now another challenge raises it ugly head. Also got the new insulation sized inside and ready to install, headers bolted back on and some paint touch up done on the engine. Also had the drivers side rail of the radiator repaired as it had come loose from the core, and got it back and touched up also.
    The wife still doesn't get the need for the car, my life long journey with the compulsion of cars and so bitches almost constantly about my working on the 34.
    What is it they say?: If it has tits, tires or transmission, your going to have trouble with it? (think I'll make that my new tagline) So back to my original post.............Life can really suck at times.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  22. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 44,275

    squirrel
    Member

    The hole in the flex plate is something you will find on flex plate on an engine that came with that transmission. Not on a flex plate that had been adapted to fit a different engine. Measure between the bolt holes to find the offset hole, and mark it on both parts.

    Sent from my Trimline
     
    Frankie47 likes this.
  23. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,059

    34Larry
    Member

    Thanks Jim will do.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  24. Johnboy34
    Joined: Jul 12, 2011
    Posts: 1,147

    Johnboy34
    Member
    from Seattle,Wa

    Seatac transmission & parts has always been THE trany shop to go to around here. What did they tell you to do with the kickdown, throttle pressure.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    loudbang likes this.
  25. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,059

    34Larry
    Member

    JB34 I had a manual valve body and I have stayed with it. So no need for the kickdown or throttle pressure, just the way I want(ed) it. Dave (owner) is a personal friend of my best friend Jim who is guruing my 34 for the past 5 years or so. I have been there almost all day. My next post will say why.:)
     
    Johnboy34 and loudbang like this.
  26. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,059

    34Larry
    Member

    UPDATE TO THIS MORNINGS POST.
    727 was not quite ready when I got there at 8 am as when examining one of the last parts to go in it was the wrong part, but Berry who did the rebuild had a buddy who did have a new one and brought it in and went on to finish about 8:30AM. So I payed up, went out and went over the install of the converter, how to get to the bolts, loading the fluid in, etc. Since there was no real (I'll use "indexing) marks or holes I discussed that at length with Berry. We finally decided that I would go home get the gear ring off the crank, that the starter uses and bolts to the converter and he would index it right for me. So on the way back I decides what the @##@% why not just load the (motor, engine, mill ), in the truck and let them do what it is they do and perhaps save screwing up all over again. So they agreed to mate the two for me and get it done right and I'll pick it up Monday. Couple of bucks more but with what it cost already this is just insurance at a small price to pay. Berry had not seen an adapter like mine nor the ring gear quite like mine.
    So plan F now would be bring it home, unload, paint, position it to mount on Tuesday when Jim will come in on his regular (help me day), and we will hopefully get 'er back where she came from, mount the Lokar shift linkage, and the shift stick, and do the rest to get the seats and carpets back in and hook up all the wiring, the radiator and start the killer beast up once more. If all goes right I just might make the Goodguys after all, but do not hold your breath, this is a hot rod after all, and if it can go wrong it more than likely will:rolleyes:


     
  27. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,059

    34Larry
    Member

    Back from my self imposed "no contact for a while"..........just for this update. Still do not have the trans back. It seems to be one thing after another.
    Trans shop found out the converter they were going to send home with me would not work on my setup and so they sent my original out for rebuild. Should have taken a couple of days and after five days they called to find out why it was not back. Seems the stator in mine is unique and they are looking for one.
    So a week before Goodguys the 34 sits in the garage engineless, and w/o a trans. So much for that show.
    Doing my best to keep the faith, but damn it is hard.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  28. I’ll tell ya what ,,,,
    That was a good call on hauling it all up there!!!

    The set back and not making sure the show sucks but not 1/2 as bad as doing this job again.
     
    loudbang and TrailerTrashToo like this.
  29. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,059

    34Larry
    Member

    I'm pretty damned pleased this morning, because my 727 torqueFlite is back and attached to my Hemi once again. Sea-Tac's owner (Dave) called yesterday morning and said come and get 'er. I stopped what
    I was doing and got there in record time.
    It is completely new inside, with a newly rebuilt converter with new stator. The case is used but in perfect condition and Berry the man who did the rebuild said it is out of a Motor home as identified by rubber inspection plug, (I guess it is) in the top of the case. They had done a good job hot tanking it but there was still a lot of road grime still, so I spent the better part of the day using rotary wire brushes and a small rotary file in the tight places getting it ready for paint. I also smoothed down what appeared to be casting spatter in places, (it looked a lot like welding spatter does). I'm a big fan of appliance paint by Rust-oleumin in the rattle can and shot it black (what else he asks). Next comes reinstalling it and putting the it back on the road. Today is the day it should be at GG's in Puyallup damn it. Oh well having a new Hydro stick I guess is better.
     
    loudbang and 31Vicky with a hemi like this.

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2020 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.