Got the spy photos CONDER and no responce? You must not have had your coffee yet this morning when you checked your thread. DAMN hillbillies. ha,ha. brian
I saw 'em a long time ago in 'at dayum eeee-mail ya squirrely sumbitch! 'AT'S why I brought up the dang feller in the first place. I tell ya 'nother thang too in addition...I wannu su-ee 'at thang shinin' like a dime in a goats ay-ass soon'ern later ya impatient chicken toucher! ...'n another thang...'at unforchinant incident at the city hall was not my fault!!!!!! (ya overeager buncha quiverpusses...my head STILL hurts like a SUMBITCH!) Sorry, I got interrupted...Ritchie's body looks fantastic and if my stuff helped inspire it I 'PRECIATE IT LAKE A SUMBI--er, I'm glad! Honestly, back in 1999 I thought if I didn't start doing the smoker thing that week I was gonna miss the boat. Pretty funny. I'm anxious to try this gig on the right tires, no water and tons of power. And by that I mean ALL of it...Bitchin' minimalist tow rig/pit set-up, slow push up the fire road past the crowd to the finish line, the push start/staging ritual, then a hard smoking pass followed by that slow push back to the pits for an icy beverage and a 1 hour prayer to thank God (or maybe Pete Ogden, Choke, King, Jensen, Rex Hutchison's or _________?) for saving my ass. AGAIN. It's been a long time!
Thanks Rollieflex. The Champion thread has been resurrected and they're starting to post great '80s nostalgia videos, check it out... Here's one of Jim Davis doing a hard pass... http://www.youtube.com/user/NOSTALGIADRAGS Those are fat new slicks and they look DRY as a bone on the launch. You can hear him pedaling the car too. E.T. in the 8s, 214 MILES PER HOUR.
"Dude...you're waaaaay overthinking this. 25 psi and slam the throttle." Again, we're not trying to do an exhibition smoke run. One other story Foster told me... "When I made a no burnout pass in the Jade Grenade, we put 20 pounds of air in the slicks. On the leave the tires (12.00 M&Hs) turned maybe once and hooked. The car lifted the left front tire and we turned a 60 foot time on par with the new cars." He told me the Grenade was making easily over 2000 h.p.
This says nothing of the track surface (might have been prepped), The clutch settings (7 grand and slide modern N/TF set-up) gearing, (3.90 gear is gonna give a whole different experience than 3.08's) and chassis configuration. The Grenade was built as one of the last generation FE cars. Long wheelbase with the engine set with zero to little dump and the driver set high for maximum bob weight effect. It is much closer to the current tech than you car which has the driver in a hole and the oil pan scraping the ground. Trust me, get out and run it. Tire incineration is as easy as can be if that's what you're looking for.
The thing I'm looking for is to run it and GO FAST. I'm not worried about being able to break the tires loose. I've got at least 2500 h.p. on 78%, a locked up clutch with a 3:40 gear. Nearly 7 degrees of dump. Once again, I'll be trying to tune the combination I have to smoke AND run hard. Tire smokers were running in the very low 7's (I've even heard high 6's) and 215+ back in the mid-sixties. The NDRA cars were in the mid-8's back in the '80s and I've seen current "exhibition" smoke runs as slow as mid-elevens. Honestly, this thread keeps going back to folks telling me it's easy to spin the tires. I know that already. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the input, but I'll be trying to get my car down the track, running the OLD way, FASTER than 7.10 (the Surfers in '66.) For some reason, a current smoke run is much slower than they used to be (even with more h.p. and stickier tracks), and this thread is here to discuss why and how to fix it. Thanks for the encouragement on running my car...I'm roughly 10k away from doing just that. All the info on here will help. - Thanks
Ok, I think you're melding a bunch of evolutionary eras togehter and creating a composite that you are trying to emulate. But for the sake of simplicity, just narrow it down to two. 1963/64 was the burn 'em through the lights era. Those guys used 3.0 gears, used valve float as a rev limiter and turned low 200;s in the high 7 second bracket. It was all about a ton of tire speed. 1967, port nozzles were the norm, and it was found that with the extra volume, the engines could be lugged and really turned on at mid track. Those guys would leave with the tires lit, then hang on the brake a couple hundred feet out, hook the tires, and they are the ones that found the 6 second bracket. From that point, the slider and then the Glide put the slip in the can rather than the tires. So...which thing do you want? A fog bank and 7's or a haze with 6's? Or hey, best idea yet...turn me loose with that puppy and let's make a run for the fucking 5's.
Now see? THAT'S the kind of feedback I dig!...Mid-sixties style. REAL fast....and NO, you can't drive my car.
White - Nitro has the script - no way can you have it all without the most fantastic realtime Photoshop evermade. For me 10/11 In Slicks, Ponch/Olds rear, Ford Two Sp Toploader, Mid/late 50's smallblock Chevy/Ponch/Olds/Buick on mild Fuel. Sittin the back with your ass draggin, your nuts on the pumpkin, hot liquid sprayin in your face - you'll find enough wood to light your fire.
What kind of car do you currently run? This tire smoker thing is harder than everyone makes it out to be. For some reason, back in the day you could smoke the shit out of the tires and run 200. But now you smoke them and you basically sit there? Get stupid off the line, up in smoke and dont go anywhere after that. Trust me , im trying it. The old fashion way. With a 600hp alcohol small chevy and a locked up clutch. If it wont turn a number, Conders 2500hp hemis will just sit and spin. And we want to know what to do to smoke them and run a number. Not just a strike in the water and then smoke the tires. Like we keep saying , TAKE THE WATER OUT OF THE STORY!!! Line up the car , launch it, smoke the tires and run a real number!!!! I am really sad that so many "traditionalist" dont understand what is being tried here. Like they never seen NBC Wide World of Sports. Or went to the drag races , "in the old days ". Or even looked at old Hot Rod magazines with tire smoker , front motor cars. That ran numbers. 25lbs and nail it isnt the answer. I have tried it.
Personally, from a spectator's point of view, I've always thought that the tire-smoking era was the most exciting period in drag racing. Sooooo cool.
You've got the answer right in front of you. 600 horsepower in a slingshot, and it's gonna want to stick and wheelie...2500 horses and you freewheel. If you want to do what they did in the old days, then you have to do what they did in the old days. 1200 horsepower, 3.0 gear, and let it fly. No, I've never run a tire smoker, but I'm POSITIVE I could get that job done.
My car will spin the livin shit out of the tires and over rev the motor. I have to leave real hard or you are right it will just wheelie. But I will spin them so hard it doesnt really go anywhere. Need to find the fine line between overreving and luggin the motor. Why did the cars smoke them and run numbers in the day. Like Conder said people tryin to do it today dont run numbers. Just a smoke show. We want both.
This subject has always been strange. It's seems so simple to understand... Smoke the tires, go fast. It's was done this way for 10+ YEARS. It built the legend of Drag Racing and TOP FUEL. I believe it can be done now, faster and better. It's easy to race in your head all day. It's great when a guy gets to drive a car on somebody else's dime, where all he's risking is his skin. Not his own money, his own race car, reputation, craftsmanship, etc. etc. Like I've said before, I appreciate all input, but I'm hoping someone who's blessed with a certain amount of super genius (or at least a bit of practical application insight) will get on here and say something that will help solve the problem. In addition to incredible aesthetics (starting, running, towing, sitting still) this type of racing will be easier on parts. It will provide a bigger bang for the buck. It will be more exciting, affordable and accessible to racers as well as fans (who want to become racers.) This gig has GIANT potential, in addition to offering the opportunity for creating a new direction in Drag Racing that's a bit more interesting than say, Tuner night. So, you think you can do it? Then offer actual theory and knowledge, or build your own car and go prove it. I'll be paying attention.
So is the contention that tire compound and carcus make-up has nothing to do with it? Aren't modern slicks made so they only stick after they get super hot? Tire smokers looked to me like they had more of a cheater-slick thing going on... Tall, square tires with a thicker cap and stiffer carcus... But I'm no tire guy... I just think as much as the cars themselves have changed, tires have adapted just as much. And seeing from the current Hurst effort, much of what was done 40 years ago is a lost art.
Ok, I think I see the gap here. What you guys are missing is the tuning philosophy and technology of the day. You car is acting like, and is in essence, a Top Gasser of the era. Those guys needed a limited amount ot wheelspin in the first hundred feet or so, both to avoid launching into a wheelie, and to get the engine up into its powerband, but from that point on, it was all hook and go. The quarter mile smoker was the product of the lean and mean nitro set-ups of the day. Here's how this works, and here is how it transfers to what you are trying to do. Today, we know that a nitro motor is load sensitive. We know that we need to run them as fat as we can, and load them as hard as we can. Back then, that knowledge didn't exist. If you were to imgine a graph of the power pulse of a nitro engine, todays "fat and happy" type tune would have the peak of the graph be a broad, arching curve. The pulse lays the pressure wave down on the piston in a smooth, even push. The same graph of a power pulse from back in the day would show a gradual build, but would peak with a sharp spike up that would result in a quick blast lasting only 20 or 30 degrees past TDC, thus jamming the piston down violently. This quick, hammering blow is transferred directly through the driveline and onto the tires. In other words, the driveline of the contemporary "fat tune" will see power pulses that are broad and overlapping, while the "lean and mean" set-up will see intermittant, sharp impulses. A contemporary tune car does not like being unloaded. If the engine sees a loss of load, it will begin dropping cylinders until just enough of them are lit to do the job. Watch a contemporary fueler do a burnout and you can see this very clearly. You'll see four or five pipes spraying raw fuel while only three or four are lit and carrying the load. If you pedal one of these cars during the burnout, it will not automatically pick up those cold cylinders...rather it will try to hook, and drive the car forward using only the active holes, so you'll go from freewheel to lug. Not a good thing at all. Now, back in those days, there were no port nozzels...everything was fed through the hat. Smoking the tires was not only desirable, but necessary, because if and when those cars would hook, they would detonate like crazy and throw the crank on the ground. The way an early fuel engine delivered its power was almost exactly the way a two stroke does when it comes on the pipe. Ever ridden a two stroke dirtbike?...compare that ability to break the tire with a sudden power surge, verses the way a four stroke bike relys on the smooth application of torque and minimal tire speed to accomplish the same thing. OK, so, you want to make a quarter mile tire smoker that will produce a number...here is your set-up. -Whatever crank/rod combo that will give you a 1.6 or so rod ratio -Whatever piston that will give you a 6 to 1 comp ratio. -Whatever cam profile/timing that will get the exhaust valve open by 80or so degrees past TDC -Bare, no strip 6-71 -The amount of ignition lead is dictated by the bore size. 4 inch bore motor 32 to 35 degrees...4.25 inch bore 45 to 50 degrees. -Straight up 1100 or dash 4. 90% in the tank. Hat nozzles only, 80's in the front, working back to 50's in the rear. Blank the main but use a conservative amount of high speed jet. -Dual disc, no slide pedal clutch. -3.0 to 3.2 gear OPEN diff with 100 inch rollout tire. Enough tire pressure that there is no real squat in the sidewall. Leave with the R's up around 3500. Don't dump it, but don't ride it. Swap feet just gently enough to not shock the drivetrain. Now, at this point, it's all gonna be driving. Initially, it's going to want to freewheel, so after the load is applied, you've got to come back off the throttle just far enough to maintain that initial amount of wheelspin. As the cars speed picks up, you gradually give it more foot. Keep in mind that the profile of the spool in a typical K valve was evolved during this era, and it is profiled to give maximum fuel delivery at just partial throttle opening. It's designed so you can pedal way back but not have the engine go dead lean. You can't allow it to hook at any point shy of around 75% of the cars maximum velocity (1000 foot or so) If it hooks, it's gonna hurt shit. The perfect run is going to have the car smoking to 900 or 1000 feet, and then black tracking through the lights. I imagine it's going to take quite a bit of seat time and experimentation before the whole thing can be pulled off successfully. Ok, So, run this past a couple of old timers and see if everything I'm telling you jives with their experience.
I dunno - sounds like White Punk knows of which he speaks! Steve Tim, if you need help with tires let me know - I'm working with a manufacturer right now on a hot rod tire program, maybe we can have them work up a short run of slicks designed to do what you want (won't be cheap, but what is in a deal like this?).
I hope something works out so these "smoker" cars can run as they were MEANT to run....what a sight that would be. I love this thread.....
JMO, but, I think it's going to have a lot to do with the balance of the car Tim. How much weight is on the nose so you can leave with the front just dancing a tiny bit. Getting the rest right will be up to you and Pete on the clutch deal. The tall gear will keep the wheel speed up and then it will be YOU young man who will run the loud pedal. You will see the haze or smoke from where you are sitting. When you get a few runs under your belt I bet you will find the combo. I have faith in you guys. Yes you have PLENTY of engine to do this. I think your combo is the right one.If it tries to hook, you need power to drive through it. You need all that power to run the big speed your looking for. It will grab the ET and speed from half track on I bet. You can haze them and still haul ass. It will make your asshole pucker when it's fishtailing in the lights. PERFECT! You will be accustomed to the sound of the RPM after a bit and you will be able to feel how hard it's pulling. Wheelspeed here is your friend again. But just enough to keep her lit up. I'm sure you'll get it and I want to be there to see it. March on soldier. Lippy
Tim, I have the perfect thing to get you out of the car after your first pass. Don't worry about your knees being weak.
The Jalopy Journal
