The Jalopy Journal
Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Stooge, Mar 15, 2018.
.........."and because they were Buick in the first place". I like that!
Still plugging away and keeping busy over here! Aside from my Buick, I've ben trying to finish up the GTO project so that can go to paint, not much left of me to do on it, just replacing some floor braces and patching a spot in the floors and the driver side door. Also started cleaning up and planning out the '58 Edsel Villager station wagon project, wire wheeled the frame and engine cradle, stripped out what was left of the exhaust and some no longer needed linkages, wiring and lines, and started figuring out what was needed fit the 460 ford in there, and if spacing would allow the addition of power brakes or power steering and what we needed for patch panels for the floor/ what would fit as theres not much for aftermarket edsel stuff. And a smaller project, is buttoning back together a 64 impala SS after an engine cleanup/ refurb and taking some of the cheeseball stuff off that the owner did when he got the car when he was a teenager.
Finally braced up and cut some of the floor out of the '37, enough to make sure the new piece I was working on fit. i'll need to order some more sheet metal and get my hands on a bead roller to finish off the flat areas, so i'll probably be buying a budget friendly one this week when I make up my mind, leaning towards one of the eastwood ones since they are cheap and its not something I think I will use a lot.
If you buy a cheap roller, just get the cheapest one. I don't think the entry level ones are any better than another one.
They seem to be going for around $130 now everywhere but Eastwood still wants $150. They're all equivalent to the old HF units I believe (someone will correct me if I am mistaken).
If it's just you, I would get the new 8" throat one they've got for $90 though. I'm tempted myself because I have one of the 18" deep HF units and it is very difficult for me to use by myself. I would love to have the short throat one for everything but running ridges deep down the center of a wide panel. If all you're doing is perimeter stuff, the short one looks perfect.
the 18 or 19" throat Eastwood one was the one I was looking at for $150ish and a few dollars off with the alliance discount, I think HF stopped making theirs and Woodward Fab is showing theirs as being out of stock. I had been looking at the 8" one, I would like to do some center beads through those big 24"x24" panels so I need a bit more room than I think the 8" one would allow, but getting a 3rd of the way in on either side of those panels might be good enough. I have to say, it would be nice to have the ability to do some wider panels if the need arouse and just clumsily go through it when I cant get a helper to stop by. if I go with the 19", I was thinking of either bolting an old steering wheel to it or they sell a 4 bar handle as opposed to the single handle that would make it easier for working by yourself.
I've seen guys rig a wheel and a shaft on the top so they can operate solo. To me, that's a lot of time, material, and extra money on a tool just to be able to use it occasionally. If you can get a big truck or boat's wheel on there you might do pretty well. Looking at all of them out there currently, it looks like the Eastwood is probably going to be the best way to go since they are an Alliance Vendor and are MUCH more likely to be responsive to any issues you have since this stuff is really their main business.
If you're mainly doing straight floor ribs, particularly solo, I'd take a good hard look at the Bead Roller Fence too.
Looks like they have a reasonably priced tipping die too now.
I'm not entirely convinced that the Woodward Fab and the HF units weren't the same rig with different paint and a sticker. I think the same may have been true for most of them but I don't recall. Jegs has one that's also nearly identical too.
I like the 64,very cool!The Edsel wagon should turn out great if you make the 460 work(With beefed up front suspension componets due to the heavier engine).Keep the turquoise over white,classic color combo!
That was part of the enticing about the 19" one, it came with a handful of bead dies as well as the offset/ tipping die, so not much more money. Realistically, I would probably just buy the 4 spoke handle, buying something to modify when I could just buy the correct/ better/ more robust one is something im just too lazy to do most of the time, and for the $20 they want for the handle, my time is more valuable. I had always figured that the HF, Woodward fab, Baileigh, eastwood, etc, single thick plate style bead rollers all just came from the same Chinese factory but had different stickers and paint https://www.ttmc.cn/category/shaping-forming/bead-roller/
The color combo on the edsel is what sold him on it, and for the most part its in pretty good shape, just the lower sheet metal on a lot of it is pretty gone. As far as I know, the plans are for all new bushings, joints, etc, and new front coils and rear leaf springs probably from Eaton. From what I've looked up, the E400 engine that was in there weighed around 650lbs, which is right around the same price as the 460. Dimensionally, they are fairly close, but im sure the exhaust and clearing the steering will be a challenge. Planning on going through Crites performance for the engine swap mounts and c6 trans crossmember for similar year ford fairlane stuff as that seems to be the closest to the edsel.
Solid plan,should really run well when completed!
I finally had to spend some money on the running boards, nearly $20 for some 1/2-13 weld nuts and flange bolts, I already had all of the sheet metal and rectangular tubing. Also bought a budget friendly bead roller and some dies, the brake and clutch pedal I needed and a steering column, gear box and pitman arm so I technically have a complete steering set up now.
kept it simple with the brackets, but they work and are strong enough not to flex with me standing on the board, (a svelte 6'1 225). the front outer bolt mount needs a shim to kick it up a hair.
Then you can test them by jumping up and down on them a few times.If they hold up with no dents or flexing you know they are good to go!
Still plugging away and collecting some parts too, most importantly the steering column, gear box and pitman arm so I have complete steering now, brake and clutch pedals so I can figure out what im still missing as far as clutch linkage stuff and transmission mounted brake master cylinder
Also picked up a little eastwood manual bead roller. I don't have any bead rolling experience so I cant really compare it to anything else, but for the price I am happy enough with it, though it doesn't seem to like the 18ga too much, but its getting by for what I need it for
I ended up adding a few beads to both lower side pieces and on the stepped center piece as well as a rectangular step all the way across the top of rear end cover piece but I don't think I took any picture of that
Finally cut out the rear floor to do an actual test fit and uncovered a little more work for myself in how the inner rocker/ bottom of the body is made and how it integrates into the door sills/ body structure but nothing too crazy
I hammered out a curved piece to connect the rear piece to the floor pans, still need to remake the rest of the torque tube tunnel that I had to cut out, probably in the next few days
Your are making good progress, Love them early Buicks
Yep!he is getting the floor back together nicely!
Hey thanks guys! Im just about done with a gto project so progress should pick up a bit. Im going to do the rear rocker repairs before i start welding in the floor i think, just to make access to it a bit easier to the backsides. Next thing i need to find is a split bench seat that will fit so i can modify the floor to mount the seats before the floor gets painted, not much luck on finding one that looks right so far though
few forward steps, I needed to start the inner and outer rear rocker repairs before I could get the flat floor pans welded in since it gave me a lot more access to the back side of everything with the floor out. The cheap eastwood bead roller is earning its keep, though it might need some reinforcing with stuff like this, but honestly if I can get what needs to get done on the buick, and the bead roller is complete trash afterwards, money well spent
The wheel arch bead for around the rear fender and the door sill steps although the inner step will need a bit of massaging but i'll do that when I do the door sill corner repairs.
Justr a first pass, still need to fill and massage a few areas and pretty it up a bit, but the passenger side should go a bit easier now that I have an idea of what to do
torque tube tunnel piece finished, the rear section tacked in and the tunnel piece tacked in on both ends
Picked up a 3rd Carter W1, still need atleast 1 more but not in too much of a rush since theres still plenty to do before I get to that point, but nice to have them. Also made a handful of the carb side flanges to weld to the intake runners, although I will be buying the head side flanges from Hells Gate hot rods since they are cheap enough that i'll be ahead buying them versus making them.
Also stripped out the edsel floor mats and insulation to figure out what we needed for patch panels for it. I was pleasantly surprised, with the exception of a small area around the gas pedal, the front and under the back seats were really good, and we already knew the rear foot wells were junk, so no surprises there. There are panels available for the similar year fairlanes so we will be going that route, though they are a little spendy
I reinforced my bead roller with some rectangular tubing and it worked better.
How did the Edsel get in here?
The bead roller didn't seem to like trying to do the outer rocker bead and steps, it handled it but I looked down over it and the upper jaw was deflecting about half an inch. I have some rectangular tubing that i'll probably reinforce it with, I just hadn't needed to yet with the few things I've used it for so far.
The '58 Edsel villager is a good buddy's first project car that we trucked back from Iowa in August or September last year, he's wanted a station wagon and something to get his feet wet with, but its going to be fairly involved since its been off the road since '68 . He has 3 kids ranging from 9yrs to 6months old, so its going to be a slow project, and I've been helping him out with what little we've done to it, pulled the engine and trans, cleaned up and painted the frame, and he has a 460 ford and a c6 for it. Probably scarebird for front discs and crites performance for the 460 swap stuff.
Pretty original looking car, love the two tone colors. Frank
Started this yesterday, just sort of a mock up to get some ideas, and figure out if there should be an equalizer tube connecting the runners together, keep them separate, or chop the top of the runners down a bit and add a log style plenum and line the carburetors up on that. 1 5/8, 11gauge tubing, head flanges came from Hells gate hot rods, and the tubing to carburetor flanges I made. 1940's Carter W-1 single barrel carburetors with manual chokes, although they will need to be flipped around to keep the throttle linkage simple. I need about $400+ in motor mount rubbers before I can look at how i'll do the header, so that will wait a bit atleast, until I pull the front sheet metal off for some repairs.
they are not crooked, the engine is sloping down at an angle sitting on the pallet/ crate
I had a piece of aluminum tubing handy and wanted to have a look see, too big and tall, but I like the look
Man that is going to look so cool with the fog horn carb covers!
Stooge, nice work. I do have a question though. Is there a particular reason the carbs are mounted as high on the engine as they are?
thanks! I have an idea in mind for how I want it to look that I saw on an old Brooklands style race car once, I just need to play around a bit and see how it works out
not really any good defensible reasons, but a few ill-conceived and ignorant ones ; more tubing length should mean more plenum volume, and up with the carbs seemed to make more sense than with a longer horizontal length since the steering column occupies space pretty close by and didn't want it to interfere much. Also with horizontal length, if an additional tube is needed to connect the runners together, that new piece of tubing could interfere with where the exhaust tubing will be occupying since it would be down lower/ closer inline with the exhaust ports. Also, im cheap, and if I need to make changes, its easier to remove material than add or buy new, so I can just chop down the runner length and set up the carb mounting points lower or if a log style plenum is used, the runners would have to be cut down also without having to replace the tubing I already have.
Stooge.....thanks for the reply. I had not thought about the added 'plenum'.....that could be useful I suppose, given that there are at least two cylinders that fire in succession from the same intake port supply. Also, it might keep the carbs and mixture a little bit cooler being up and away from the exhaust manifold.
how about an insulator between the carb and manifold
that was something I have been contemplating, on one side its good to have a dense cool air mixture, but on the other, and although I don't think I will have issues with icing, having some heat around the intake manifold seems to be a good practice and there is a good read about why on the stove bolt site. Question now is, if the space between the theoretical header tubes be enough to keep the intake runners from heating up too much, or will there be enough heat from the tube to keep the incoming air fuel mixture from icing. A downfall in using the thick 11gauge tubing I used for the intake runners could be too much to absorb or dissipate heat efficiently.
Not too much heat or you will have to deal with vapor lock.
Stooge.....Icing only develops in the carburetor itself at the venturi...where the pressure drop cools the incoming air below ambient in the engine compartment. And usually, though not necessarily when humidity is up. Keeping the mixture cool(er) below the carb isn’t a problem except how to do it without the icing issue upstream. .........
Still plugging away on some not so interesting buick floor/ inner rockers work, but was feeling a little motivated from @Hotrodmnm 's '59 Edsel thread last week so the '58 got some attention. Got the 460 bbf and the C6 loaded up and dropped it off at Powerplay Engine and Machine in Wilmington, MA. I hadn't met him before but really seems like a good, honest guy with a good head on his shoulders, who's making a go at it. Just going to be a mild rebuild, and some top end upgrades to make it breath easier, and where he's going through the trans, it keeps it easier on our end.
Since the engine will be a bit, started going through the body, ordered some new rear floor pans and pulled the driver side fender off which fought the whole way through between its 2 dozen frozen bolts, and a lot of them being obstructed. Rose colored glasses when I agreed to fix the fender prior to removal, but needless to say I've got some work ahead of me.
I wanted to dig into around the headlight area, I figured I would start with the lower corner/ rocker section since it was just about to fall off, especially where I would be jostling around the fender around a bit working on it. Still need to make the back bracing and mounting flange on the rear, but since the factory bracing was all rotted away, I wanted the outer sheet metal to locate the bracing rather than the other way around.
fairly rotted and bent/creased so it took a few guesstimates to make the new one.
Taking a bit of shape. Took a little guess/ experiment and ended up using light pressure on the bead roller and slightly hammering it out a bit afterwards to create the flanged area around the wheel well opening.
Just a first pass to clean it up a bit, still needs a little massaging, trimming and sanding, and I left the edges unwelded for the time being until I get the backing made to give it a little flex until I test fit it, but so far im happy enough with it
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