Good paint should be fine over a good (catalyzed) primer or sealer. Adhesion is accomplished mechanically--by sanding and cleaning. Here's the Garage Paint 101 post that TomH and I did. Tom is "frugal" but does fine work. He used Featherfill (polyester) primer over the bare steel which was metal prepped. The car was sealed with DP epoxy (PPG) and the paint is single stage Concept (PPG). Still looks great! (about 6+ years old--and driven!) http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14597&highlight=garage+paint+101&showall=1 There are lots of compatible products out there. SPI promotes their undercoats heavily, which are used under many other "brand" topcoat colors. I have Sikkens single stage black urethane on my frame and some other parts. I have Glasurit single stage urethane on my engine. Both are over sikkens self etch primer and looking fantastic after 8 years. overspray
Great thread Scoot! Following it along teaches what to expect from each type of paint chemistry. I'm thinking of using the Dupont acrylic and some kind of hardner, for the frame rails and body of the A.
I honestly expected this thread to go in the wrong direction, but WOW! There is really some good info and I'm really glad to see so many people stepping up and talking about brands and types they have used, not just one brand or one type of single stage black! Great thread and great info! Keep it coming! Overspray, your posts have been very educational and the little videos you've put together are great as well! Thanks!
Yes, thanks for the good info. Because of this thread I did some research and found that they did not make the SS Urethane I used last. Now I have some new ideas.
Yeah--and thanks to the "guy" who collected all the GREAT HEMI info. Stuff like that is why I hang out, here. Oh yeah, Eyeball used a good single stage urethane black on his 32 roadster. Utech urethane, which is a secondary line from Akso-Nobel/Sikkens. That is one of the better less expensive lines I know of. Good primers and sealers, many are tintable for a like tone undercoat, and the colors and clears have a good variety of hardners and reducers, plus my favorite--accelerator-- for us way up in the frozen north. http://www.grinsteadgroup.com/utech.htm
Some of us are here to learn, anyway, right? HAHA! Great help from everyone. The only problem with this thread is now I have TOO many choices! HAHA! D'OH! Going to look back into the availability of DCC9300 since the feedback has been so incredible. Also, since all I'm doing is suspension parts and a few other odds and ends, even a small quantity of DCC9300 would get me a long way, I have a feeling. I was planning on shooting this single stage (whatever I select) with a small touch-up gun similar to what Overspray is using in his thread (http://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v104/overspray/DSCF0136.jpg), since these are pretty small parts. It's a gravity feed (non HVLP). Any recommendations that may persuade my selection one way or another? Will I have problems using a non HVLP gun with any of these products?
Don't confuse yourself with nonHVLP and HVLP especially with the little guns. Gravity feed is a type of HVLP, in that it uses less air because the fluid does not need to be siphoned up with air, thus it is more efficient because the air only has to atomize the fluid, which feeds to the spray tip by "gravity". The small gun I use is very efficient and was even my most used gun in the body shop for production work. A painter is always spraying small parts, small areas/jamming, and the small gravity feed gun was a time and material saver. That one in the post "Shootin' a Track T-Garage Paint 101", has a 1.0MM tip which is somewhat in between a "touch-up" gun and a larger gun for color. It will atomize well down to 15psi at the tip which really lessens the "overspray" while not using the "Volume" of air required for HVLP guns. For spraying suspension parts, even frame rails, it will save material and produce a nice finish. Key to this, is gun settings and reduction, which is easy to "dial in". The small gravity feed will probably apply paint at a lesser film thickness, but just add 1 or 2 more coats to get the thickness. Transfer efficiency of the little gun will still save a lot of material. Super good "bang for the buck" for a $50.00 gun. Chinese copy of an IWATA
ok some bad news from california, concept clv acrylic urethane has been banned as of the first of the year. all the paint shops can only work off of what they have in the mixing set-up (which could be a gallon) or face penalties, so you'll need to call around to see if anyone has some left. before it was region or county wide but this time it looks statewide, also they talked about another company called glasco? that might be ok to get still and better then ppg urethane (of course more money too) but they're not 100% yet. the only stuff we're left with is the water born stuff and it MUST have a clear coat.....which is funny because the primers and clear coat are both urethanes . they don't make the same universal black like dcc had, they have either black tint (which might be like the dcc 9000) or you can choose a black from the color chart and they'll make it. i would think it is all acrylic urethanes of all brands but you can call around. anyway they have enough for about a gallon of tint black and i'm going to get a quart or 2 tomorrow. i forgot about G.E paints, they always have a older stash, also you might try betz in orange for a different brand. by the way correct me if i'm wrong but isn't gravity feed guns the same as the old hvlp (high volume, low pressure) ones?. i tend to run mine around 25psi for outside panels and maybe 15 to something that blow back in my face (ie inside corner, vertical panel with an over hang).
YEP! Mine is just like the purple one in that picture. So you think a regulator setting of 15 psi is good? I'm also settingup an additional drying (I think you did this also) that's a portable stand alone unit. Designed for wall mounting, but I've got it setup to run remotely between the main feed line and the gun. Figured I would use that regulator to control gun pressure and keep the regulator off the gun. Or is that a bad idea?
Thanks for reporting back! I figured that's what you would come back with. Bummer! I'll check around and if not, I'll check Vegas.
oh i forgot, they said they can sell it a little cheaper since in discontinued. was like $95 a qt, but he said now it's about $80 qt plus hardener.
The little purple gun has an orafice or spray tip about half the size of the copy cat IWATA. Going from .6MM to 1.0MM is a big difference. The smaller tip won't work well painting a frame or suspension parts. It's too hard to get enough paint on the part when you have the smaller "hole" to put the fluid through. It's still a good gun, but for much smaller areas. If you don't get enough paint on the part (film thickness), you decrease the durability of the finish. The 1.0MM tip is just more versatile for small to medium jobs. Smaller guns will perform or atomize more efficiently if the paint is reduced slightly more, therefore you will need extra coats of paint/material to get the required film thickness for durability of the final paint film. I prefer to have the air pressure adjustable at the gun, even though I do use the same set-up you describe to set my initial pressure. In 50 feet of hose, the pressure will drop by friction loss, so from your adjustable regulator to the gun it will drop 5-15psi at the tip of the gun. Final pressure regulating at the gun just gives more control, especially when painting irregular shaped objects and contours and smaller parts and areas. It really saves walking back and forth to the regulator. The small guns need a finer adjustment to get the pattern even and efficient. Painting a car is different with large panels and not much variation needed in air pressure.
Okay! Good tips! (no pun intended) I'll rethink gun selection. Have a couple others around the shop that may do the trick. I'll look at the tips and see.
check out a john deer dealer and ask for there black they put on there tractors.Its called blizt black.Its a single stage and it looks like dp90.
This doesn't really answer your question, but I just sprayed Omni single-stage black for the first time over the weekend and it was a bitch - for me anyway. I'm usually pretty decent at painting, but damn, that stuff wanted to run like mad.
What was your remedy for the situation?? Did you have to strip it and reapply it?? This is the type of stuff that worries me!
Luckily the areas of the frame that will show came out killer, except for one very minor sag, which we sanded out with 1000-grit. The split bones were a disaster because I was trying to get the sleeved holes coated. I had to sand them and I'll be re-spraying. I'd say it's as much or more me than the paint. Meaning, if I was more experienced with it the outcome would have been better. I'm used to spraying multi-stage paints and have more of a "feel" for how they are spraying and how they'll dry. The single stage just seemed a lot more unforgiving. Again, it was my first attempt at the single-stage, so most of the blame is on me.
yes it is flat black..... and if left in the sun for a few weeks it becomes chalky grey lol..... i have used the john deer black it works just fine if thats what you want and hold up well to the elements.
The auto body program I teach at uses a ton of PPG Omni. It is great paint and costs about a THIRD of Global (which we also have). We have had great results with both single stage (MTK) and bc/cc (MBC and MBP). There are a few tricks that might help you in spraying OMNI MTK. 1. Tint your sealer (MP180) using the tech. bulletin for it. If you are using black, use the Omni black epoxy (MP172) as the sealer (add 10% reducer to the RTS epoxy to use as sealer). 2. If you read the P sheet carefully you will find there are two mixing ratios for MTK single stage. Make sure you use the 4:1/2:1 ratio. 4 is the paint, 1/2 is the appropriate reducer, and 1 is the appropriate hardener. That half part less reducer than the other ratio will make it spray much easier and not as likely to run. 3. Two coats should suffice in most cases, but a third will give it the glow. Here's a link to the tech bulletins for Omni products. If you check on the prices you may want to learn how to spray it. https://buyat.ppg.com/refinishProdu...?BrandID=f7b90464-5ca2-4bef-95c9-eb8aefd601f1 Click on the catagory, then choose the product, then click on TDS (technical data sheet) to the left. There are some great tips for getting the base coat Omni to cover better as well if any one is interested. Jake
dp 90 is a semi flat but it's a primer sealer not top coat. also i was at the deere dealer about a month ago (i work on weird stuff at work ) and they didn't know about blitz black.....i can't remember if the stuff they had on the self was single stage, the dealer is santa ana.
Whatever you do dont use rm brand chassis black sprayed a frame with it and in about a year any frame exposed to the sun faded really bad to a drk brown color what a waste of time! Hope that helps you from makin a mistake like i did!
Run the shit out of it! If you don't run it, you ain't gettin it wet enough!!!!!! Then, use my tech. http://66.154.44.164/forum/showthread.php?t=367250 I think you're on the right track Scott. Stay away from the cheaper brands, Nason, OMNI, Napa, Centari, Imron, ugh. Even though everyone is going to tell me I'm wrong, it just isn't as good as what you're looking at.
Yeah, you're wrong, Bill! If budget is an issue, Centari would be a great choice. I'd use urethane, like Chroma One by Dupont, or HOK's JetSet black single stage, if cost wan't a factor. No need to clearcoat black to get a nice finish. I like to tell the story about painting a 63 Galaxy in my boss's old shop back int the 80's. he didn't want to go throught the trouble of doing lacquer, so many coats, and materials... so he had me paint the car in black Centari. I used the old 2 pak hardener system which added more "clear" into the paint, as well as adding real Centari clear into it. I knew the guy was fussy and I wanted the car to look it's best...as it was a nice 427 powered, 4 speed car. The owner thought he got black lacquer, until many years later, when he asked me to touch the car up, as my boss went out of business. When I told him it would be hard to do, as it was acrylic enamel, he tried to convince me that it was lacquer....until I told him I painted the car, NOT my boss, so I knew exactly what it was. No one ever called him on it, either, that the car wasn't lacquer. And it still looked good 12 years later!
I also use Nason Ful-Thane on all my black suspension components/frames. Been using it for years. It's pretty inexpensive, sprays and covers good, and buffs easily if needed. Sprayed over a quality primer it's very durable. I've added Dupont flattening agent to it for semi-gloss applications.
WOOOOW! This thread is just jam packed full of great stuff! Been a really huge help. I'm the first one to admit I know very little about paint and I really feel that between this thread and another thread out there I started a few months back on primer and sealers have just about all the info you would ever need to buy paint. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to reply! Hope it's helped other people as much as it's helped me! I wanted to put this up as an added piece of information. I HAMBer (who will remain unnamed unless he chooses to claim his quote) sent me a message with some interesting information. I think it might be useful to some as well, so I'm going to post it since it's a little different than what some of you have mentioned... Thanks a ton to the person who messaged me. I think it's good info that should be shared.
tons of great advice on this thread from the pros for the novice painters, and every painter has their personal preferance on which paint system is their favorite. myself, i'm a sikkens and u tech guy, been using it for 20 years and personnaly believe there isn't a better product on the market today. only thing is the sikkens is a little pricey but the utech line is reasonabley priced, and now keystone automotive sells this line of paint. i guess what it really comes down to is what's available to you over the counter. i would have to honestly say, if i were you, i would just go with the ol' reliable centari, reasonabley priced and very user friendly, and if prepped, and mixed correctly, should last for a very long time without any problems. it's not shit paint, because if it were, it wouldn't have stayed on the market for as long as it has. just something to think about! good luck.
kinda of a dumb question, but if the paint stores in california can't sell urethane (and haven't had dcc for years) would other places like tractor stores or the like still be able to sell it in california?. paint was cheap and i was cheaper when i started.......of course the only thing that's changed is paint prices . it's a lot harder money wise now to just blow paint and learn along the way, that's why this thread is great.
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