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Customs Silicon bronze mig wire?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by mikhett, Mar 18, 2016.

  1. mikhett
    Joined: Jan 22, 2005
    Posts: 1,370

    mikhett
    Member
    from jackson nj

    I saw a video of Ron Covell saying that this wire although not forstructural parts could be used for patch panels door skins etc.The lower melting temperature should hold down warpage.Has anyone used it? I use .023 in my mig.
     
  2. john worden
    Joined: Nov 14, 2007
    Posts: 1,257

    john worden
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from iowa

    Unless you are welding on late model cars with specific requirements choose the weld wire that grinds easiest.
     
  3. frazzledsmythy
    Joined: Aug 30, 2009
    Posts: 70

    frazzledsmythy
    Member

    I've used bronze might wire before. Never really cared for it. Seemed like no matter how you adjusted the machine the beads were always a bit cold and lacking penetration. I have had awesome results with good true bronze rod (not the crap you get at the hardware store more like alloy 873 dura bronze) and the tig welder though. Almost better than the torch and no flame to contend with.
     
  4. frazzledsmythy
    Joined: Aug 30, 2009
    Posts: 70

    frazzledsmythy
    Member

    Correction: Mig not might.
     
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  5. Hackerbilt
    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 6,212

    Hackerbilt
    Member

    I'm just guessing here, based on experience with gas welding, but it seems to me "bronze" of any sort would have NO penetration. It simply bonds metal...much the same as solder.
    That said, the bond would be extremely strong, but joints would need to be overlapping and not butt joints as you can do with fusion welding.
    As I said, never used the wirefeed version of bronze...so I'm going on experience with Oxy-Acc and what I think are reasonable expectations!
     
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  6. Rex_A_Lott
    Joined: Feb 5, 2007
    Posts: 827

    Rex_A_Lott
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    We used some here at work a few years back to weld some expanded metal to some grates. It was galvanized material, and while still not much fun, it worked better than the standard mild steel all-purpose wire we had been
    using. We called the welding rep and that was what he recommended. Good Luck.
     
  7. rod1
    Joined: Jan 18, 2009
    Posts: 504

    rod1
    Member

    I have no experience with silicon bronze Mig wire,but I have used silicon bronze tig.It is more user friendly as far as the heat required to weld sheet metal,but to me the disadvantages far outway the advantages.You have a very limited amount of chance to metal work your panel after such a repair due to the chance of cracking,and then there is the problem of many body fillers will not adhere to the bronze surface.You can epoxy prime the piece before you apply the filler,but I would check with manufacture about compatability to the bronze.
     
  8. prpmmp
    Joined: Dec 12, 2011
    Posts: 918

    prpmmp
    BANNED

    With technology today we have a wide variety of great tools at a real good price for the home builder. My question is it still not the best way to weld sheet metal using Oxygen and Acetylene? The fusing of panels and hammer welding always seems the easiest way(softer welds) I have all three methods and now I,m getting back to the basic O+A method. I'm still just a hobbyist and hack so what do the Professionals think? Pete
     
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  9. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 5,786

    oj
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I'm surprised they have silicon bronze mig wire, you must have to have the feed rate extremely high. I sometimes TIG with silicon bronze and its more like soldering. I use it more on headers to fill blemishes etc as a metal finishing process on pieces I need to have chromed etc. I had hoped it would help fill pits etc on rusty metal, thats why I experimented with it.
     
  10. woodiewagon46
    Joined: Mar 14, 2013
    Posts: 1,122

    woodiewagon46
    Member
    from New York

    The Metalshapers Association has an article written by Ron Covell and he explains everything you need to know about it's use. For sheet metal fabrication you can't beat Silicon Bronze wire. I have never used it on body panels but after reading Ron's article I think I am going to try it.
     
  11. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 3,061

    anthony myrick
    Member
    from al

    I use it in joints such as rear body panels, rockers and sometimes to spot flanges on skins
    OEMs uses it in joints to kelp prevent cracking
    Mercedes recommends silicone welds in the joints for repair panels such as a sail panel joint for a qtr panel replacement.
    I have works on many European cars and found these types of welds for joining exterior sheet metal parts together
     
  12. El Gabacho
    Joined: Mar 13, 2016
    Posts: 11

    El Gabacho

    I use it all the time on body panels ever since I got a free roll from the vendor to try out. It lays down "lovely", and grinds so well I thought it was Ninja Magic at first. I wish I could justify having an additional mig to just leave it spooled with a roll of SB at all times.....
     
  13. 1946caddy
    Joined: Dec 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,073

    1946caddy
    Member
    from washington

    Whats it used with, 75/25 gas ?
     
  14. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 15,064

    gimpyshotrods
    Member

    "Harris ERCuSi-A Silicon Bronze MIG Welding is a copper-silicon alloy that is used to weld similar composition base metals, brass, and to weld these copper alloys to steel. Silicon bronze is also frequently used in GMAW “braze welding” of coated sheet steels.

    Preheat: Silicon bronze base metals generally do not require preheat. Brass or copper base metals may require some preheat depending on copper content and thickness.

    Shielding Gas:
    • Argon 100%
    • Helium 75%/Argon 25%"
     
  15. hot4mercs
    Joined: Apr 25, 2010
    Posts: 14

    hot4mercs
    Member
    from Iowa

    The silicon bronze uses argon shielding gas. Adhesion type weld not fusion it is strong and can flex more than steel. The temperature is quite a bit lower so less warping from heat and cooling.
    Both sides have to be very clean no rust, also must have a root gap so the silicon bronze flows through and attached to the back side. It grinds easier than steel but I don't think it by a lot. Tried to buy another roll of the wire the welding shops did not stock it one never heard of it.
     
  16. dirty old man
    Joined: Feb 2, 2008
    Posts: 7,560

    dirty old man
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I used it with a tig back when I had a boat prop repair shop on bronze boat props and have used it on some thin sheet steel parts where a lap weld could be used, as it didn't have to get as hot and no risk of burn through. I do have questions about plastic fillers over it adhering properly though.
    Every thing has to be squeaky clean.
     
  17. Epoxy needs to be sprayed over silicon bronze if any fillers are going over top. The only filler I know that has been tested and approved for use over Silicon Bronze is Evercoat's Rage Ultra. Silicon Bronze is becoming fairly common place in the collision industry these days so others may test and approve but none have done so to date to the best of my knowledge.
     
  18. sliceddeuce
    Joined: Aug 15, 2017
    Posts: 241

    sliceddeuce
    Member

    And then there is the price...……….
     
  19. seb fontana
    Joined: Sep 1, 2005
    Posts: 5,428

    seb fontana
    Member
    from ct

    $$$$$?
     
  20. Fortunateson
    Joined: Apr 30, 2012
    Posts: 1,780

    Fortunateson
    Member

    Is this stuff the same as ESAB (?) or easy grind wire?
     
  21. I Tig silicon bronze wire all the time. In fact I used it today to repair a taillight bracket. It has lots of uses and pluses.
     
  22. No
     
  23. 1946caddy
    Joined: Dec 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,073

    1946caddy
    Member
    from washington

    75% argon and 25% carbon dioxide ?
     
  24. Nacifan
    Joined: May 19, 2011
    Posts: 24

    Nacifan
    Member

    I've been MIG Brazing 4 at least 30 years and Tig Brazing even longer. It's a great tool to have in your fabricating arsenal 4 sure. Like many "Welding" skills it will take each person sometime to master this operation. It's truly worth the time. In the picture below you will see the wire I have been using for a while. You use 100% Argon for a shielding gas. It is not going to look like MIG welding. It is best done with a "Pulse" setting if your welder has that setting. If not you can often"Trigger" your machine by rapidly pulling the trigger on-n-off. It works best with a gap between both panels so the Silicon-Bronze can "Incapacitate" both panels. Epoxy prime before body filer. I epoxy prime before any body filler anyway.
    p.s. I've been to 2 classes with Ron Covell and to Lincoln and Miller welding schools as well. I can get more pictures Monday (I left them in a file at work)if you guys want more.
    all the best, NaCifan
     

    Attached Files:

  25. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 15,064

    gimpyshotrods
    Member

    No.

    I use 100% argon when I use it.
     
  26. 1946caddy
    Joined: Dec 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,073

    1946caddy
    Member
    from washington

    I see where you use 100 % argon but I was questioning the 75 helium/25% argon setting in your post.
    Are you using the 100 % with mig or tig ?
    The original post was for .023 mig wire on sheetmetal and maybe I got confused. I've never heard of anyone using 100 % with mig but I don't keep up with all the gases. and uses.
    A 75 percent addition of helium to argon produces a blend for mechanized welding of aluminum greater than 1 in. thick in the flat position.
     
  27. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 15,064

    gimpyshotrods
    Member

    I use 100% Argon with either/both MIG and TIG, largely because I have 4 tanks, at any given time.

    The recommendation of Helium 75%/Argon 25% is correct for this wire when used in a MIG application, as per the manufacturer of the wire, as an acceptable alternative to 100% Argon.

    I just re-skinned the entire tail of my Falcon, to the doors, with Silicon Bronze on the outside, and ER70S-6 on the inside.

    100% Argon with the Silicon Bronze, and 75% Argon and 25% Carbon Dioxide with the ER70S-6.
     
  28. patzfab
    Joined: Dec 30, 2008
    Posts: 113

    patzfab
    Member
    from Canada

    Use it all the time with TIG & 100% Argon. Gave up on the MIG wire. Very inconsistent results. With TIG the results are very good, especially on cast iron repairs or cast iron to steel and stainless also.
     
  29. brg404
    Joined: Nov 10, 2008
    Posts: 134

    brg404
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Si-Bronze mig is used for filling voids/imperfections in fresh bronze castings at foundries. A good way to save an expensive (art) casting. The downside to brass/bronze on steel is this: if you get the parent metal too hot and cross-contaminate the metals, you end up with a weaker (copper-contaminated) crystalized micro-structure. And future repairs can be problematic if you have brass on steel (much like lead on steel.)

    I would use brass/bronze/copper where the parent metal is brass/bronze/copper. Or if joining dissimilar metals. High volume production shops may use bronze for non-structural work, but they also use panel adhesive - which Im sure is fine in the right application, just not for me working on old tin.

    The picture of the lovely Si-Bronze weld from Nacifan looks like a bronze butt-weld just below a door hinge. I would be concerned about possible cracking of the bronze over time due to flexing/vibration. A flanged lap-weld with inner capillary coverage of both laps by the bronze would be preferred in a high-flex location.
     
  30. Nacifan
    Joined: May 19, 2011
    Posts: 24

    Nacifan
    Member

    Great thought brg404. However that will not be the case. This is an amazing way to attach (in this case ) sheet steel with low heat. It is best for exterior panels and just loves mild steel. The good old fashion "put-er in the vice and fold-er back and forth" test will get your attention 4 sure. Below is a Butt View attachment 4093568 Joint with backing, both front and back. Please note the small heat affected zone. It grinds very easy as well. Sorry for the rust on these examples but they have been setting around for a while.
    all the best,
    NaCifan
     

    Attached Files:

    gimpyshotrods likes this.

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