Technical Show Me How - M-21 in an "A"

Does anyone have photos of what it takes to install a Muncie M-21 behind a 265 in a stock-framed '30 Tudor? I know about the firewall recess and other clearance issues with the SBC. Just looking for crossmember modifications, shifter placement, stick selection, seat interference, etc. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

I have a Ford 3-speed and a bellhousing adapter, but I have grave concerns about the side-shift (column) linkage and the clutch/brake pedals trying to occupy the same real estate. I have a line on a set of pedals from a 50-ish Ford 1/2-ton that I'm going to try to use. Any other recommendations?

I did a search, but all I found was exterior shots of cars "claiming" to have a 4-speed (no pic, no proof). The one that did show a M-21 in an A roadster (Arin Cee Roadster) was on a Deuce frame...not exactly the same, but a nice install.

Thanks in advance for any advice/instruction shared!

 

I don't have any pics, but if I was a beginner I'd order up a Pete & Jakes catalog. Lots of good parts and illustrations to look at.

 

I used a Hurst comp plus model, and located just ahead of the the crossmember. (had lengthened the frame 6") so can't guarantee yours will fit!
Then extended the shift handle upward and tilted it to the right. Worked great!

 

The selection of handles from Hurst has dwindled over the years but is still invaluable especially if you don't have the capability to modify your existing handle.

http://www.hurst-shifters.com/stick-diagrams-shifter-assembly-diagrams-transmission-id-charts/



This old HAMB thread may be some help.
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/model-a-muncie-shifter-help.636084/

 

Thanks guys!!

@alchemy - I'll have to get that reference catalog!
@pitman - Any pics?
@DDDenny - I actually have the second stick from the left on the top row...but it's perfect in my '46 Chevy PU! And looking at that old thread, I've considered making an offset or heat-bending a longer shifter, but not sure if I need it to jog forward to clear a minivan bench seat.

Any more pics?

 

Brett, have a Muncie in my coupe and it ends up pretty far back. I changed the longish stick that was in it for one that was a little shorter and with less bend. I will see if I have any good before and after pics and parts #for the sticks. I have buckets in it and had to use spacers to move it to the driver side a little bit. Tailshaft is mounted with an add on crossmember that also has the ladder bars mounts. I will get some pics if you tell me what you want.

 

Brett, if this shows, the Comp Plus had a 3/8ths thick bkt. Plate and straight rods primarily because the shifter mounted higher. The Hurst pivot bolt is in the upper right. (A better relevant Muncie is pictured just below on left)
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgur...ZAhVs4IMKHW_1BeMQxiAoBXoECAAQHw&iact=c&ictx=1

 

Thanks @catdad49 ! Shots of where the shifter landed (before and after) and how the stick relates to the seats (also before and after, if you can). Ladder bar connection would be great also (from underneath).

Thabks


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Brett, will get pics in the a.m., anything that is relevant. Old stick Hurst# 4331 was replaced with Hurst Indy SSA#5010002/Indy Truck#5010016.

 

I have 2 comp plus shifters, just wanting to get an idea of what I’m up against.

Thanks

 

Thanks for the compliment on my Arin Cee Roadster project, and you are correct, everything is different on a Deuce frame as on a Model A.

But...here's the catch - you are thinking backwards. Unless you plan to stretch the frame WHICH I HIGHLY DO NOT RECOMMEND you need to start at the radiator and work your way back, not the other way around.

In a Model A with a stock frame, almost every V8 will require that you modify the firewall for engine clearance and build a new crossmember for the transmission WHICH WILL BE LOCATED WHEREVER THE TRANSMISSION MOUNT FALLS.

Once you've got the SBC/Muncie transmission in place, THEN worry about shifter placement and seat clearance which are body issues, not chassis issues.

Chances are you'll need to move the underseat body crossmember rearward along with the seat to get the body cooperating with the chassis, but that will give you extra foot/leg room as well. With a Muncie you won't have room to run underfloor pedals but will have to fabricate swinging pedals, perhaps using an Ansen-style dual master cylinder setup.

This will result in a well-balanced hot rod with the weight low and back towards the center of the car. This will also avoid the all-too-common and 'way-too-ugly overly long hood which absolutely ruins the good lines of the Model A. Good luck with your project!

 

I put an M21 in a 29 coupe with floor pedals and the shifter comes through the floor in basically the stock location.

Some of the key pieces include:
Early 60's Chevy truck bell housing with the clutch fork and slave cylinder on the passenger side and a TF Shifter that puts the lever right about where a Ford top loader lever is.

 

The P&J pedal is pictured on the right. It didn't fit the floor at all so I made two of the pedals on the left. The top curved section is all that sticks through the floor , the bottom section is under the floor, and the center section below the toe boards.

 

Here's a shot showing the pedals, masters, bell housing and slave cylinder all in the chassis. The adjustable cross member will accommodate any transmission that will bolt to the engine.

I don't have a picture of the shifter handy.

 

Attaboy, Don! Haven't talked to you in quite a while. Hope all is well.

 

Thanks for the tips, but as I said in the first post, I’m well aware of all the firewall issues that need to be addressed. What I’m trying to gauge is, if I DO try to make a Muncie work, what are the obstacles, pitfalls, and opportunities I’ll face.

Thanks for the positive comments on making this work!!


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Is your slave hard plumbed without a hose? Isnt that going to eventually crack the tubing?

 

DRD57 I was thinking of something along the lines of what you've done because I don't want to cut, drill, or weld the tubes on the aftermarket 32 frame I'm working with for much the same reason. No commitment to location and removability. Do you have a close up photo of the clamps? I like how stream line that is compared to what I had in mind to make.

 

Honestly, I don't think the biggest issue is with the Muncie as the clutch mechanism.
If you talk real nice maybe @Marty Strode will post some photos of how he builds his.

 

Apparently we've miscommunicated. My main point was that the "obstacles, pitfalls and opportunities" will depend upon where you locate your engine within the chassis. You can create room by locating the engine further forward as many guys do, or you can locate the engine further back which eats up room for pedals, linkage, etc. Both ways have their advantages and disadvantages, but as has already been pointed out if you are willing and skillful enough to be creative you can get just about anything to work.

I'll be looking for a build thread on your car to see how you ultimately deal with these issues. Good luck!

 

The clutch mechanics is really not a big concern, as I have an ace in the hole with the owner of one really nice A Vicky. Think I’m going to take a hint from @D-Russ and use cable actuation.


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Thanks sir!

Here’s the Tudor I’ll be working on...


And a link to my "dormant" build thread...
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/b4cdan-or-just-another-a-tudor-build-thread.765768/



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Here’s another thing that can give me some room...

This is the M-21 in my truck...


...as compared to my second M-21...


As you can physically see, the first shifter is about 2” closer to the engine than the second. I may look at switching the second trans to the truck as I may have a little more room with the first trans in the Tudor.


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The shifter in your truck might be farther forward, but it is also farther off center. With a narrow body car, the farther off center you get, the more likely you are to end up with the shifter directly under your right leg. I think the 2nd shifter location is a better fit.

 

This is an issue in the Arin Cee Roadster that I will address in the future, probably by making an offset to move the shifter handle to the center of the car while leaving the shifter mechanism where it is. This was often done on 60s muscle cars with 4-speeds and a center console. It's only a matter of a couple of inches in my car but in the present location the shifter is not only uncomfortable but also difficult to shift while maintaining good throttle control. I actually race my roadsters (see my avitar photo) so this is a hugely important factor to me.

 

All hard line. With several bends in the tubing it has the ability to absorb a fair amount of vibration. I haven't had any problems doing it this way so far.

 

M-21 that's ambitious behind a 265. I am running a Sag behind my 355. LOL

If it were me I would get the tranny in there build the floor around it and get a Hurst Competition Plus for it then just get the handle that best suits the build. But I do things backward too most.

 

Nail on the head!! I’m home with a fever today, so I’m taking measurements. The second shifter looks like it will just miss the frame crossmember, and like @missysdad1 mentioned, the shifter is closer to the floor centerline.


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