This has probably been discussed or argued here before and if so sorry for stirring the pot, but should I run thermotats in my stock 59a motor? I just pull the radiator out of my 39 to have it cleaned and I sent the pumps off to a guy in Florida that rebuilds the pumps and installs some new type of impellers. I have been told that these pumps double the output in gph of a stock pump and that I should leave the stats out. I am looking for real world seat of the pants experience here from guys that drive their flatheads. The advice that I have been getting is from guys that probably don't use their cars like we do. This car ran fine at speed but wanted to go to 210 real fast in traffic, it's still six volt and I don't want to get into a change to 12 volts just to run an electic fan, it has a small six volt fan on it now. Thanks for any thoughts.
Is he putting different bearings in them too? Isn't that why they leak/fail often, cause the tension of the belt is wrong and it wears out the bearing? I didn't know you could run thermostats in them, so I'm anxious to see the replies too...
Hello Tim! by all means, use thermostats.If you run without them,the coolant never stays in the radiator long enough to exchange the heat.Therostats slow down the gph.This goes for all cars, not just flatheads.BTW my flathead's been running for over 30 years now WITH the fomoco therms. You going to the hrr.in B.G.?? seeya, glenn
i would go to fordbarn this link and type in waterpump search, you will see more than you need to know about the the themrostsat issue or skip's high flow pumps,i would at least read em to get a better over view http://www.fordbarn.com/earlyv8/forum03/
[ QUOTE ] the coolant never stays in the radiator long enough to exchange the heat [/ QUOTE ] I really believe this is an old wives tale. From reading ionformation of guys on the fordbarn who had tested this theory, they concluded that the original flathead pumps can't cause this condition. My experience is as follows.... 1937 Ford original engine. Drove it 3500 miles this past year from a long long sleep. Ran well except the occasional oveheating in traffic on hot afternoons. About last July, I had one bank overheat so badly on the road doing about 45 mph and driving it only about ten minutes, that it actually burned the paint off the head. Here to find out one of the thermostats, which originally looked clean and relatively new, clogged from the dirt in the engine and closed off. Who's to say that their flatheads won't decide to throw some casting material into their water passages. The problem with these engines is the temp sensor only monitors one head originally. I removed the thermostats and installed washers in place with a 5/8 hole. I have been driving this thing since then, and on one occasion, Going 65-75 mph from Canton to Cincinnati, About a four hour trip with no problems. The engine runs a constant temperature of 175-185 degrees and most of the time I don't even need the electric fan when I'm on the move. I am sure there will be guys who will say that it's important to keep the engine at a constant operating temp and the thermostats are the way to accomplish that and I can't disagree with them, But I dont think the flathead pumps can provide too much flow that the radiator can't cool it. IMO.
PeteJoe, don't you think that by running the washers with the 5/8" hole that you slowwed the water flow just as if you used a thermostat??
A different perspective on the old "slowing the flow" theory, found in a Smokey Yunick book: The flow restriction provided by the washer or thermostat causes backpressure in the engine water jacket, pressure above the general level of pressure acting on the coolant. This helps suppress areas of localized boiling around combustion chambers, helping cure both cooling and preignition problems. The other concern here is the traditional reason for stats, probably why Ford put them in there in the first place: an engine running at low power output, that is all street engines in the 99% of their time they are not pulling hard, is likely to be running well below its design temperature. This means clearances are off, oil is too cool to get rid of vapors, and so on. Sludge and wear time. If engine naturally runs above thermostat setting, something isn't happy in there.
If thermostats where no good, why are all car manufacturer putting one in ? It would be a big money saving for them if they could leave them out. Yes you can get away with washers (or even without them) but why?? To have a nice running effective engine it needs to run hot. So if you have a good radiator, all the sheet steel the funnels the air thru the radiator, and an original fan or similar. And finaly the timing set right (not o little advance). you will never have any overheating problem with a flathead. Regarding if the thermostats clogging up, id say you have a big problem, you really need to flush the engine and the radiator. And then the problem should go away.
Thanks guys, I felt all along like it should have thermostats just to keep from running too cool at times and sludging up the engine, but this is my first flathead and I am looking for all the advice I can get. Seems all the I get from my buddies are crap for messing with it, but I want to use this one as a learning curve for another that I have for my truck. This old motor probably does have some crap in the water passages... but it has good compression and runs great and I've got too many irons in the fire to tear it down. Anyway thanks again for your help, and I'll probably ask for a lot more of it. Tim
talking to our local builder, wally cannon. he just ran the washers with the 5/8 th holes.no thermostats. he said something about the water causing too much turbulance going into the head (possibly bubbling?) and causing hot spots. if i remember right. 50+ years as the man. wally passed away a few months back. i'm tring to get a story together about him to post in the future. boy is he missed around these parts.
I see this is a blast from the past. Years have past and so my experience and thoughts have changed somewhat. Most say the 5/8 Id restriction in a thermostat is required to increase the pressure within the system and force coolant into harder to reach areas of the stock heads. I am only speaking from the experience I had on three flatheads. I had a thermostat stick closed due to dirt in the system of one 21 bolt engine. Unless the block has been totally cleaned that chance still is present. It heated so quickly that in 3-4 minutes running at 60 mph the head turned black and peeled the paint. Luckily that was the only problem I had. I took the thermostats out of this engine and installed washers with a 5/8 ID. The engine stayed cool from that time on. Every flathead Ive seen so far, Ive come across pieces of 2-3 inch metal that is the diameter of a pencil lead. I was told this is from the casting process when these were poured. Those things can dislodge anytime. My 8ba is running thermostats. And good ones are very important. Check them in a pan with a thermometer for correct operation. Prestone makes the best. I ran into heating issues with this engine at first and tried millions of different combinations finally installing thermostats with a pressure cap and a pressure valve at the overflow tube. Now.. in 90 degree heat running at 65-70 mph. It never reaches over 195. Normally running at 180. As for my 59AB in my 34 pickup. When throwing this thing together I didnt have thermostats available for first fire. I have about 1500 miles on this rebuilt flatty now and it never ever reaches over 170. So I never messed with it and it is not running thermostats or a restricting washer. Many think there is a sure fire method to keep a flatty cool. And from the sounds of it many have had success with Skip Haneys high pressure pumps. My experience, as you can see, varies depending on the flathead I had. Bottom line . A clean block with good flow pumps along with an electric fan will be a good foundation to start. From there Id start investigating timing advance issues next.
My pumps started leaking. So, I debated the Skip Haney pumps (VERY much bragged on on the Fordbarn) or just getting a reman set from NAPA (1/2 price). Well, I went with the NAPA ones. Anyway, I had asked grandpa about the better flowing pumps. He can't figure out why people would want more flow. he said that when they used to run them on the roundy round tracks for long periods that the pumps would actually over-come the radiator.....meaning that as the top tank fills, the tubes in the radiator can't drain to the bottom fast enough.....thus over-filling the top tank and having antifreeze run out HEAVILY throught the over flow tubes. He says he soldered copper pipe into the top tank and ran it to the bottom tank to help get the water to the bottom....actual bypass tubes..... Now, I know we're not racing on tracks but with a low rear and running 65+ for long times might equal that. He doesn't run thermostats. Tried the washers, tried the driling hole in the stats etc. I really think Petejoe is right and grandpa hints at this too. Each one will run cool, but there is no one solution to keeping flattys cool. Something else he added, is that it has been know in the flathead community that they aren't good parade cars because of the heating.....other than the 39 and 40 models that ran the fan on the crank he never had heating problems in the past 65+ years..... I'm not running stats and I picked a VERY hot day the other day and let my car sit and idle in the sun, beside the house (not much air) ...let it run for about 45 minutes....got up to around 195.....pulled the throttle on a little to make the fan pull more....temp dropped down to about 170 in just a few minutes..........HOWEVER, i haven't had the car under a load at highway speed yet..... BTW, after I ordered new pumps, the old ones sealed up...guess the seals were dried out I know the guys on the BArn SWEAR by skps pumps....and someday I'd like to try a set....but $200 was a lot right now....
I have heard this theory that the water passes too quickly through the radiator to cool it without a thermo or restrictor. The washer trick has the romance of an old back yard fix. I can't get my Stude motor (259CI) above 145 unless it's over 85 outside with an original 34 radiator and no thermo. I tried to drive it last winter and I thought the gauge broke. It ran like shit. A thermostat is on order. I know, I know it's not a flathead. So what. I run them in my Merc flatty and it never gets over 200 in traffic. Just because a thermostat fails on a flatty doesn't mean anything more significant than one that fails on a 350 Chevy daily driver. IMHO Shit happens...there doesn't HAVE to be something mysterious about it, just because it happens on a flatty. just my worthless opinion.
yes, a thermostst or water restrictor (summit/jegs) must be used, also try a sierra/evans type coolant.
i was having similar heat issues in my 53 Merc. i pulled the stock FoMoCo therms and put 160's in. seems to be running a little cooler, at least closer to the mid-point on my gauge. that is when my dash gauges are working. they cost me all of $5 each plus another $1 for the gasket. for $11 why not try it out for a little while. all the parts were in stock at the local NAPA.
I run 170 therms and speedway pumps. At highway speeds and 85 deg. outside radiator never get above 165deg. In traffic it will climb to about 200 when the electric turns on. No problems ever with boilover.
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