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Should i be able to squish new lifters by hand??

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Shaggy, Feb 23, 2010.

  1. Shaggy
    Joined: Mar 6, 2003
    Posts: 5,207

    Shaggy
    Member
    from Sultan, WA

    The ones in particular are sealed power ht 817's for sbc. The reason i'm asking is i havent had the good fortune to buy new lifters on any previous builds, and both old sets of used chev hydralic lifters i have floating around are stiff as crap. Is that just because they are loaded with oil, or did i get a bad batch of lifters??
     
  2. squirrel
    Joined: Sep 23, 2004
    Posts: 55,934

    squirrel
    Member

    put oil in them, they'll stiffen right up
     
    SS327 likes this.
  3. dana barlow
    Joined: May 30, 2006
    Posts: 5,115

    dana barlow
    Member
    from Miami Fla.
    1. Y-blocks

    New need to be pumped up in oil bath,don't come with oil in them ,other then small bit of lube. Old lefters have oil;)
     
  4. Hotrodbuilderny
    Joined: Mar 20, 2009
    Posts: 1,646

    Hotrodbuilderny
    Member

    You can stick them in a can with oil over the top of the lifters, and pump them with
    a pushrod till they fill up. I have also let them sit on there own in oil and they have bled
    I guess I am a slow typer the other answers above weren't there when I started but you get the point
     

  5. Shaggy
    Joined: Mar 6, 2003
    Posts: 5,207

    Shaggy
    Member
    from Sultan, WA

    crap 6 mins later 0 views and already 3 reply's i must be an idiot
     
    SS327 likes this.
  6. Dont put oil in them yet . Let the engine oil pump do that. Otherwise the possibilty exists that they will be pumped up at full length and cause a valve to hit a piston. Some of the boxes actually have a warning about this in them.
    Don
     
    willys36 likes this.
  7. 1-you can compress new lifters as they have not been pumped up with pressurized oil yet
    2-the old/used ones will not compress because they have been pumped up by pressurized oil, and a check valve inside will not allow them to be compressed by hand
    3-NEVER RE-USE USED LIFTERS!!!!!!!!
     
  8. rjaustin421
    Joined: May 1, 2009
    Posts: 337

    rjaustin421
    Member

    I totally agree with Don, put them in dry and then prime the oil system after you have adjusted the preload on the lifters, if you do not have a proper primer borrow one or buy one. It is imperative to use a primer!!!
     
  9. MarkzRodz
    Joined: Sep 12, 2009
    Posts: 533

    MarkzRodz
    BANNED

    I'll give you the correct answer!!
    I agree with all the above posts!!!
     
  10. fab32
    Joined: May 14, 2002
    Posts: 13,985

    fab32
    Member Emeritus

    What difference does it make whether you pump up the lifters by submerging them in oil and either pumping them with a push rod or just letting them sit and purge the air by themselves or putting them in the engine and filling them with a pump primer after installing them? ANSWER: Not a bit of difference.
    After building in excess of 200 Chevy engines I prefer to pump them up before installation. That way you have a simi-solid base to gauge your initial valve lash instead of the easily collapsible plunger of an unfilled lifter sometimes giving you a false feel on where zero lash is.

    Frank
     
    LOU WELLS likes this.
  11. BigBlockMopar
    Joined: Feb 4, 2006
    Posts: 1,361

    BigBlockMopar
    Member

    That's just hearsay... ;)
     
  12. I agree. I use an oil squirt can, and carefully pump oil in the side orifice until it starts to come out the top. BTW, doing it after engine assembly with an oil primer will only oil some of the lifters. If, in an effort to get em all, by rotating the short block while priming, you're wiping some of the valuable break-in lube from everything you coated during assembly, kinda defeating it's purpose
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2010
  13. Is it? Really?:rolleyes:
     
  14. Because when you pump them up by hand they go to the top of their travel and occasionally will not bleed down. Some engines do not have pressurized oil in the lifters even and even though they are hydraulic they get their oil from the rockers down the pushrods. The last engine i know of of this design is the 80 slant sixes. In fact i happen to have a hydraulic cam in my slant six rail. Why are the lifters like this or better how do i know they are? Because otherwise if they would bleed down on their own then every single time we started our cars with hydraulic lifters they would clack till the oil filled up in them. Obviuosly they dont so some must be trapped in them and keep them tight snugggling the pushrod. When you install them and then prelube the engine in an engine with a pressurized gallery the lifters take up the clearance just to the pushrod and that is so they are never too far up the hole. In a non pressurized lifter system like my slant six even when i remove the rockers i have to physically bleed down the lifters with a tool i made or they will stay pumped up at full length which they went to when i removed the rockers and the residual oil ran down the pushrods into them.
    Many many engies are ruined each year because the lifters were pre pumped up. Which engines ? Those were the ones than mysteriously bent pushrods., broke valves etc. The builder came up with some strange a questionable reason why it failed which put the balme on the owner or the oil or valve springs or something unrelated to the builder. I know in a group this size there are some who have been here unknowingly. I also understand the concept of wanting everything nicely lubed before firing. It is sufficient to wipe a drop of oil on both ends of the pushrods for protection during those first 15 seconds of fireup. Prelubing a comlpeted engine is always a good idea and you dont need to spin the oil pump. BTW I have a small invention that does it like intervenous. Puts the oil right in the galleries through the oil pressure sender hole.
    I realize that sometimes folks get away with preoiling the lifters. It depends on a lot of things including a the lifter design and does it have adjustable rockers but for every ten that get away with it one has a mysterious engine failure. Motors are expensive. Why take a chance and you are taking a chance when it is unecessary. Even some FSM have in large block letters "Do Not submerge lifters in oil prior to assembly." That is why. Sometimes the best intentions do not work out well in practice.
    Don D
    As for you chevy guys you forget NOT ALL ENGINES HAVE ADJUSTABLE ROCKERS like you fellows do.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2010
  15. nutajunka
    Joined: Jan 24, 2007
    Posts: 1,464

    nutajunka

    Maybe it's just me, but I've taken several lifters apart when I was younger just to learn how they worked. Plus if they were collapsing easily,I'd just put one in oil and bleed it and your answer would be solved. I would never use, used lifters on a new cam for sure as mentioned.
     
  16. I should also mention that when some lifters are at the absolute top of their travel they cannot bleed down because as i am sure most can understand there must be some movement , however small, to allow the disc or valving to move to the open position to relase oil from the chamber. When installed in the engine they are never allowed to get to that spot.
    By the Way disassmbling an old lifter to see how it is made is a wonderful idea.
    don
     
  17. Are you saying, if a rocker backs off or you break a pushrod and allows the lifter to fully extend, it won't re-adjust/bleed down after the repair? I disagree...
     
  18. Hotrodbuilderny
    Joined: Mar 20, 2009
    Posts: 1,646

    Hotrodbuilderny
    Member

    You tell him Groucho! I have done them both ways, but sometimes they take a little while to pump, up so it's just easier to pre bleed them. I always set them at zero lash, then after I run the motor I go down a quarter turn. you can go down as much as one turn

    And to Dolmetsch the question was asked about chevrolet, and what motor running hydraulic cam runs that tight piston to valve clearance to bend pushrods or blow up motors?
    I set my motors at zero lash when I fire them up isn't that the same as what you're saying
    bends pushrods, so if a rocker arm starts to clack that's a bent pushrod? because that is
    what you are saying if the lifter is fully extended
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2010
  19. Shaggy
    Joined: Mar 6, 2003
    Posts: 5,207

    Shaggy
    Member
    from Sultan, WA

    Now everyone at one point has run a motor out of oil right??? that clatter of the valvetrain, isnt that the lifters bleeding down from full extention right?
     
  20. Hotrodbuilderny
    Joined: Mar 20, 2009
    Posts: 1,646

    Hotrodbuilderny
    Member

    yes it is, it's the same thing, and just like it takes a little while to pump up after you put oil in it's the same as starting with new lifters that's why it doesn't matter either way, I just choose to fill mine first
     
  21. ironpile
    Joined: Jul 3, 2005
    Posts: 915

    ironpile
    Member

    Man,I`ve heard so many methods of doing this ,but I agree with you.I pump them up with an oil squirt can.Also a good priming before startup is imperative,"don`t you like it when people use big words"? LOL
     
  22. You can disagree all you want. Sometimes they dont. It isnt about disagreeing , It is about eliminating the possibilty of disaster by doing things so as not to allow it to happen. Never give trouble a place to start. When a manufacturer says Do not prime or submerge in oil before installtion and when it is in their FSM. do you think it is there for no reason?
    However carry on with your method and when disaster strikes and someday it will remember you are now without excuse. I have 41 plus years at this professionally and feel no need to say anymore.
    And yes on the slant six with comp cams lifters you cannot reinstall the rockers without bleeding the lifters. hard pure cold fact of life. That is just one example.
    Don
    I read all your posts so i will make you a deal From now on when a technical question is asked i will not bother to answer it even if i know the answer. I dont guess when i answer you. I actually know the subject well and have years and years of experience plus taught the subject at college level as well. I was very careful to explain so all could understand in common language. Sorry to have bothered you. It wont happen again. Have another beer
    Don
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2010
    BJR and SS327 like this.
  23. Ken Chevy
    Joined: Dec 29, 2009
    Posts: 3

    Ken Chevy
    Member

    Not true.

    THREE if's, if they are all yes answers, then you can re-use flat tappet lifters.

    1. They still have a crown/radius on them.

    2. They get put back on the SAME cam lobe they were removed from. I took two pieces of 2x4 about 18" long and drilled 8 holes, 7/8" diameter in each one about 1½" deep, evenly spaced apart with them on their edge. I took a felttip marker and drew an arrow on each side and wrote DRIVERS on one side and PASS on the other side after I nailed them together, side by side. Reminds me of the time I was going to freshen up the BBC in my '68 Nova SS (rare cars, I have only seen 6 others in the 35 years I have owned mine) and as I took the lifters out after removing the intake, I looked at each lifter to make sure it still had crown (hold it upside down and place a small straight edge on the bottom while holding it up to a light, makes it easy to see if they have started to go flat or not) and if okay, place them in the correct hole/correct side in my lifterboard. Great! All the lifters were fine. I had the lifterboard sitting under the counter and a few days later I reached under to grab a catalog and about as fast as I could say "NO", I looked down and the lifterboard was lying upside down with 3 of the lifters lying on the floor. That was that, into the scrap they went, cam too. It was a really small street cam anyway, it was only 256°/266° @ .050.

    3. AND, the cam and lifters were/are re-installed in the SAME block they were removed from. NOT the same size block, but the same block. IF you put the cam in a different block, buy new lifters after you have measured the cam lobes to see if any of them were/are worn.

    If the cam AND lifters are still in fine shape and you are just freshening the block up and will re-install them in the same block, then they don't have to be broke in again. Since everything went back in the same block in the same places, the lifters are still mated to their lobes on the cam.

    BUT, the odds of you finding all 16 lifters with crown so they can be re-used isn't going to happen very often. The odds of finding a camshaft with none of the lobes worn so you can just install new lifters on it is really slim odds too. For example you put a thousand miles on the new cam and then stick it in a different block, that WOULD require NEW lifters. But make sure you mic the cam lobes, they CAN go away in just a FEW minutes.

    We had one customer who lost 3 camshafts, none of them lasted 10 minutes. I finally drove out to his shop 10 miles out in the sticks to look his engine over to see what his problem was. Pulled a valve cover to look at the geometry... glanced down and told him; "Here's your problem."

    Someone had installed screw-in studs AND guide plates on the heads he was using. BUT! They never drilled out the stock pushrod guide slots nor elongated them. When they had torqued the studs down they had one off to the side a small amount, causing it to bind on the pushrod. As soon as the engine started it started wearing that lobe down because the lifter/pushrod couldn't rotate. He pulled the heads, we fixed his problem, he put it back together and no more failed camshafts. It is usually the simple stuff like that which causes us car lovers problems.

    Use 30 weight oil that has high Zinc content.
    Plus use a Zinc additive.
    Plus use the cam high pressure break in grease that cam with the cam when you bought it. If none came with your cam, go down to the local speed shop and buy a tube/container of it.
    Try to make sure the engine fires on the 1st or 2nd revolution and take it instantly to about 3,000 RPM and then vary the RPM between 1,500 and 3,000 for the first 20-30 minutes of the camshafts life. The cam is oiled by the oil getting thrown off the crank and rods, so vary the RPM so the oil comes at the cam from different directions. Do not just let it sit there and run at 2,000 RPM for 20-30 minutes or so.
    Question, Frank. Why do you need a semi-solid base? How do/are you adjust(ing) Chevy rockers before the initial start of a new cam install in an engine? Could you list the steps you go through please? i.e. How do you find zero lash before putting the preload on the rocker/lifter? I am always interested in how other people do things.

    I have been walking through the door of my automotive machine shop for over 30 years and my employee's and I discuss the ways other people do things to see if we can improve the way we do those same things. We are always into finding a better way to do something!

    .
     
  24. ROADSTER1927
    Joined: Feb 14, 2009
    Posts: 3,127

    ROADSTER1927
    Member

    If you cant pre pump the lifters up then I guess solid lifters dont work either!!!
     
  25. This can be argued til the end of time. BUT, if I have a motor torn down far enough for the lifters to actually be out of the block and in my hand, they're going in the trash (and prolly the cam too at that point). Spend money when you should, and you only cry once!;). I will un-subscribe from this thread now, as it's starting to go in circles
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2010
  26. powdercoater46
    Joined: Oct 27, 2009
    Posts: 246

    powdercoater46
    Member

    Good Jesus; soak them for at least an hour in 10w30 before you install them.

    I can't imaagine installing them dry.
     
  27. Kramer
    Joined: Mar 19, 2007
    Posts: 911

    Kramer
    Member

    What does the lifter manufacture recommend? Mine said to soak them in oil for several hours before installing.
     
  28. 29nash
    Joined: Nov 6, 2008
    Posts: 4,544

    29nash
    BANNED
    from colorado

    Yep. BUT, It takes a 'Mechanic' to know that. :D
     
  29. rjaustin421
    Joined: May 1, 2009
    Posts: 337

    rjaustin421
    Member

    True story- We did a valve job on a 2.8 GM V6 and the customer who was a pretty savvy guy also did cam/lifters & timing set. He said he would be soaking the lifters and as much as I told him NOT to do so he insisted. He was a pretty fast worker and got the top end together & started the vehicle within an hour & a half or so.

    Shortly after that the phone call came in that we screwed up the heads because he had NO compression. After calming him down and instructing him how to bleed down the lifters on the car (the 2.8 would not let all of the lifters be removed with the heads on) he set up the valves again, primed the engine with the oil shaft & it fired right off.

    He had the valves hung open from the oil not bleeding down & I have to think that when he was setting the pre-load he was holding the valves open. I have built hundreds if not thousands of engines of every type from and I will always go with what I know works without fail.

    Side note: We NEVER (as in not once) let an engine leave without priming it. On gear driven oil pump engines we used a home made air over power primer.
     
  30. 29nash
    Joined: Nov 6, 2008
    Posts: 4,544

    29nash
    BANNED
    from colorado

    Don't buy new lifters unless there is something wrong with the old ones.
     

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