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History Shivel-Lay question from a FoMoCo guy.....

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by 6sally6, Mar 27, 2020.

  1. Deuces
    Joined: Nov 3, 2009
    Posts: 18,476

    from Michigan

    Yep! Me three.... :D
    I do know the actual hp rating for the L-88 was like 562 hp and the ZL-1 was like 625 hp.....
    Of course that was with a good set of Hookers and a tune up.....;)
  2. Yeah, me too! Smelly

    Desoto291Hemi likes this.
    Joined: Dec 14, 2009
    Posts: 2,297


    As has been stated, Corvette guys are strange.

    a good friend of mine bought an all original 63 vette 4 speed car years ago that was burned, roof melted in a really bad state.
    He owned a shop and traded work with a body shop to get the vette fixed.
    He was really just expecting a clean car he could have fun with.
    Well..... the body shop hit it out of the park and when the car came back it was 100% perfect.
    That’s when the vette bug bit him and original everything got rebuilt, reused refurbished.
    Original style shocks, the marker and crayon marks where they needed to be etc etc .
    Took him 10 years to build but it’s just absolutely perfect and 100% numbers matching.
    Again, corvette guys are like Ferrari guys, strange about originality and how it should be.
    tractorguy likes this.
  4. blowby
    Joined: Dec 27, 2012
    Posts: 6,498

    from Nicasio Ca

    Hey, I resemble that remark! Believe it or not, not ALL Corvette guys are "strange". Now that old car values have caught, and even surpassed Corvette values, so has the originality thing. Many Corvettes survived unmodified as well since they didn't need 'Corvette engine' swaps.

    Take a look at the Corvette Hot Rods thread. Over 200 pages. Call those guys strange? I've had more engines/trans/rears in mine that most guys have had cars.
    Ferrari guys? Maybe. ;)
    VANDENPLAS and Deuces like this.
  5. b-body-bob
    Joined: Apr 23, 2011
    Posts: 412


    Mopars have the engine and model both in the VIN, but that doesn't stop people from swapping those around too.

    I've heard some cars called "envelope cars" because you can fit the VIN tags and body stampings in an envelope and scrap the rest. With that and a set of HF number stamps and you're well on your way to (getting caught faking) a hemi 'cuda. There was an old junker on ebay just recently with faked up numbers claiming to be a real barn find.

    Plenty of Mopars have had the VIN area of the block machined flat and restamped. the good part is it's pretty easy to recognize if you know what you're looking for. I don't have it memorized, but know where to find the info, but OTOH, I'm not much into numbers matching stuff anyway.
    town sedan likes this.
  6. realsteeler
    Joined: Mar 30, 2012
    Posts: 39


    Back in the 70's, I was a toolmaker at an assembly plant here in N.Z. When they were reaching the end of a model run, they would sometimes be short of a few bits and pieces. So the assembly line supervisors would come out to the machine shop and request we fabricate whatever was needed to get the last few vehicles completed.
    So there are plenty of so called 'numbers matching' vehicles out there with my version of componentry on them, straight from the factory!!
    My guess is the same practise went on in U.S. So where does that leave the snobby 'matching numbers' crowd?
  7. DDDenny
    Joined: Feb 6, 2015
    Posts: 13,300

    from oregon

    It leaves them in the world that THEY created and I see no need for their beliefs or standards to hold weight over what the hot rodding world does.
    If someone has the $$$ and wants to buy a 100 point NCRS car and modify it.......................
    Que sera sera!

    town sedan likes this.
  8. If you have the paperwork of the engine block exchange it would not affect the overall ACV.
    On the other hand I looked at a 1969 Camaro for a potential buyer with the 396/375 engine L-89 and aluminum heads. 4 speed. He had a receipt for a machine shop that had a hand written note that they exchanged the heads when they were supposed to do a valve job... I cradled under the car and found the they tried to hide a crack in the block around one of the drain plugs. The potential buyer was not happy...the owner had claimed it was numbers matching I have also found date codes not being near the built date. I find this on Mopar's a lot........
    mgtstumpy and town sedan like this.
  9. I think that once it gets bored and a cam change, different carb or heads or intake, that it is no longer a "Corvette" motor no matter where it started life. But I am certainly not an expert on the subject. LOL
    Gasser 57 likes this.
  10. 6sally6
    Joined: Feb 16, 2014
    Posts: 1,072


    Maybe I "mis-heard" the owner when he was talking about align boring not being done 'back-in-the-sixtys.' He mighta said The Dealership didn't do it and they just swapped out the engine!?
    Regardless.....the owner fell-off-the-face-of-the-earth........won't call me back
    Surfcityrocker likes this.
  11. town sedan
    Joined: Aug 18, 2011
    Posts: 1,290

    town sedan

    ^^^ They saw this thread! -Ha, ha!
    blowby likes this.
  12. They are all original ONCE! NOT restored, NOT altered, or there of....... Vette' guys are beyond me.
    Read= ORIGINAL ........I'll never get the numbers /bolt's/chalk mark thingy..... Although I understand it, just aint my bag.........
    Deuces, 427 sleeper and town sedan like this.
  13. saltracer219
    Joined: Sep 23, 2006
    Posts: 743


    Yup, it happens but over the last few years there have been several of these guys prosicuted for this and they have recieved jail time and fines as well as having to refund the buyer. That is why so many go thru now as "tribute cars" or non numbers matching.
    Deuces, town sedan, j-jock and 2 others like this.
  14. saltracer219
    Joined: Sep 23, 2006
    Posts: 743


    If the Engine was replaced under warranty they would not have repaired the block. The standard procedure was to replace the short block with a factory new replacement short block assembly after the zone manager approved the replacement. Then usually the zone manager would come to the dealership and inspect the old engine block and usually he would take a hammer to it and destroy the block casting to make it unrepairable. The idea behind this was to remove G.M. from any liability issues. I am sure that Ford and Mopar did the same thing.
    Deuces, town sedan, j-jock and 2 others like this.
  15. MY take on this:
    I had a '62 Vet that was pretty stock in '69 when I got it
    Only thing missing was the pesky fuel injection
    unit that the guys who took them off then.
    are getting about $8,000 for now.
    I got it for $600, drove it as a daily for 2 years
    and sold it for $1600.
    I never look back.
    But in hind sight at the same time I found a '61 Vet
    straight axle gasser style that I passed on.
    Today I probably would still be driving that gasser
    street car, especially around the guys with the chalk marks!
    That car is still around here somewhere!
    Cars are made to drive no look at.

    Just my $.02.
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2020
    Deuces, town sedan, j-jock and 2 others like this.
  16. 427 sleeper
    Joined: Mar 8, 2017
    Posts: 952

    427 sleeper

    FINALLY!!! It's about Damn Time!!! There's more rare shit today than was actually produced because of these Asshole's! JMO
    Deuces, town sedan and j-jock like this.
  17. Wasn't there some GM exec or somebody that said "Out of the original 20,000 1969 Z/28's that were built, only 100,000 remain. :D
  18. No one came and checked the motor on the '71. Lynn went to the Chevy dealership in town, took the title from the 'vette to show proof that we were replacing the motor in a Corvette. We got the motor with documentation and a price tag almost 3 times what the same motor would have cost us otherwise. (the same motor was offered in other models just not called a corvette motor) I know that the Corvette snobs (not to purposely step on anyone's toes in the event that the snob shoe does not fit) accepted the car as a restored original car.

    Granted this may not be the case or may not have been the case with older cars. The only time I ever worked a Chebby dealership was for a couple of months at a KC dealership. They needed a diagnostician and I needed the money.
  19. 34Larry
    Joined: Apr 25, 2011
    Posts: 1,200


    This obsession of every nut/bolt/screw/rivet must be absolutely correct is not just with the vette bunch, it exists with most all car makes and guys who are into that. I don't have a problem with that, but it ain't me. I was once at a show on Long Island, admiring of all things a beautifully restored two door falcon when the owner started showing me how perfect it was. It got down to him demanding I look underneath a the tags hanging off the suspension in places where they were when on the assembly line.
    I experienced these snobbisms myself when buying a 1966 Buick Riviera GS back in 1989. It was a fantastic find sitt'n on a car lot. A stunning beautiful ruby red, it was show room, with only 52 K, a 425/465 factory dual quad car with documentation saying it was. Buick only produced 169 of these with the quads being a dealer option only, at first. They did eventually in '66 did go to factory installed and in doing that gave the motor a new lettered identity from the factory installed package. They did not do that to the dealer installed like mine was, and I eventually sure did wish they had. My documentation was certified by Hulling Bros. Buick in Seattle and notarized. None of this mattered when showing at some weekend show, but OMG when going to a Buick show, those types spoken of here were hard to believe. There were some even with the letter of documentation would say its a forgery. I just would just say, "ok thanks for calling me a fake even though you don't know me", and walk away. I find most of that crowd to be extremely obnoxious and not worth my time. For me matching numbers don't really mean a thing, its just a number showing that PERHAPS the original drivetrain is still with the car and to that I say, "Wopty-F'n-ding"!!
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2020
  20. Deuces
    Joined: Nov 3, 2009
    Posts: 18,476

    from Michigan

    Actually 18,302.... But who's counting???.... :D:rolleyes::oops:
    mgtstumpy, Gasser 57 and tractorguy like this.
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,004


    Numbers this, paper that, blah, blah, Scottsdale blah. Think about it for a minute. You could build a car right down to the trim fasteners to the EXACT look and factory specs. So perfect the best expert in the world couldn't tell it apart from the "real thing." Let's pick that 7 figure conv version, the one with the 426 and dual quads. It might cost all of about $200K in labor and good parts to build it and maybe add 25% for float incase it missed something along the way. So all in, including the initial purchase of "raw material" to build upon given those prices lately, you now have about $250K in it. It runs, drives, stops, steers, rattles and squeeks just like it did when it was new. Now considering the one that's well into 7 figures what is it that buyer paid for? Paper. "Oh but the history and the story about the blah-blah-yaddy-dah-dah and so-n-so actually farted in the passenger seat when..." Fuck that. It's a car, period. "NUMBERS MATCHING" became the battle cry some time ago. Sadly it has infected everything we all like so much. Personally I like when a guy tells me his 33-4 Packard is "...numbers matching..." which is impossible in most cases. They might have used steering box 756008 on frame 756189 with the front axle numbered 756113. The trans might be 756288 and the rear axle 756089. The closest they ever were was in the customs and specials from 29 thru 31. I have seen those as close and 12 or 15. apart. Once you turn the key and start consuming envious levels of fossil fuel all that bullshit goes out the window. I wish we could go back and embrace the times when that paper didn't matter. But it makes one ponder, where's all the "numbers matching" Deuce hiboy roadsters and custom Mercs from back in the day? Sam's Mercury? McGee roadster? What numbers are on those?

    Shit, back on topic, that Vette should have a "CE" block number and close casting dates. Given those and some (dare I say it) paper trail the pinky raisers might powder it's ass and let it "in".
    mgtstumpy, Deuces, town sedan and 3 others like this.
  22. s55mercury66
    Joined: Jul 6, 2009
    Posts: 3,980

    from SW Wyoming

    Lol, as you probably know, it has had a frame swap, maybe the drivetrain at that time also. Probably hasn't made a dent in it's value though :)
  23. RmK57
    Joined: Dec 31, 2008
    Posts: 1,429


    Given the choice I'd rather have an original collector car with the drive train it was born with. Makes a difference to me, maybe around 30% difference in value. Sure, a date coded block will get you by but the higher end muscle car market where the survival rate was so low a numbers match block is a huge factor in pricing.
  24. It's a funny thing all this numbers matching stuff. Back in the early 80's when the muscle cars were just cheap 10 or 15 year old beater used cars we'd buy them cheap, beat em' to death racing them, break em', fix em' and race or beat on them some more. At the end of all this fun (savagery?) not too many of them still had their original engines, or in many cases, their transmissions or rears either. Never heard of "numbers matching" back then beyond some Corvettes and never dreamed it would ever matter. I do feel fortunate to have been able to use them for what they were designed for without any regrets. Not too many of these collectors that have these things sitting under a cover in some warehouse will ever get to enjoy the feeling of a powerblast drive after work on your way over to pickup your girlfriend. Magical times.
    bowie, karl share and Deuces like this.

  25. And that would be acceptable.......... But to those who have their head in their ass.........
    Seen it with many makes.........I actually had to distance myself from a nation wide club, just for the fact.....
    They really hated my car, because I wasn't a sheep! Total opposite!
    Deuces likes this.
  26. The only thing I can afford that is numbers matching is my O/T 2018 Dodge 2500 that I bought new. (Don’t give me that Ram Crap, it will always be a Dodge Truck to me). Numbers matching never meant a tinkers damn to me. Even in the antique tractor world, you will be hard pressed to find numbers matching. Most old Farmall tractors serial numbers did not match the engine number and no effort was made by Farmall to do that. Often times engines were pulled from the assembly line to use in power units or other applications other than tractors.

    Sent from my iPhone using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
    town sedan, Gasser 57 and Deuces like this.
  27. karl share
    Joined: Nov 5, 2015
    Posts: 98

    karl share

    you should try dealing with the early Porsche crowd when it comes to numbers matching and factory correct.o_O:confused:
  28. Deuces
    Joined: Nov 3, 2009
    Posts: 18,476

    from Michigan

    Ummm..... No thanks!... :rolleyes:
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,004


    I think they're worse than Model A guys. Shit, did I say that out loud...:eek:

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