Old 28, If you bore that block to 4 inches, hard fill it. I ran a 4.00 x 3.25 in my oval track car. Those things get pretty thin in the cylinder wall at 4 inches. Mine hauled ass, but ran hot all the time, and split a wall after about 7 races. I knew several people back then that tried this, and every one of them lost their engine, sooner than later. I think with a filled block it would work. I'd just run water through the head....
Four Banger - That is my main concern with the 250 motor bored to 4". I have to be able to drive the car to the lane, race & drive back to the pit. I have to run "gas", no alcohol, and I don't think I can keep the motor cool with a radiator and water in the head only. As an alternate idea I thought about a Chevy 250 +.060 with a zero deck block and a 62cc 194 small chamber head with 194/160 sbc valve and .050-.060 off the head, CR about 11.2. I know I can keep it cool with a full water block/head/radiator and I still think it will make 255-265 HP with a 257" motor and will stay together. Any suggestion or old racer knowledge?
christmas tree - I had plans to port & polish and releave the shrouding on the 194 heads. I like the small chamber 62cc for an easy 11.25/1 CR. With the 230/250 head and the 72 or 74cc chamber the best I could work out on paper was 10.35/1 CR. Do you think that the 230/250 head with 194/160 sbc valves will out perform the 194 head set up the same way? Other have told me that the small chamber 62cc head is the better setup but I will need to unshroud the valves, take .060-.065 off the head and put in the bigger valves.
I did a bit or research in my Leo Santucci Chevy 6 book. With a 4" bore it is stated that "Block Hard" is necessary to within an inch or so of the top of the block. Also it shows that Sissell starts with new head castings with an 84cc chamber and still cuts the chamber around the valve for flow. Any less than a 64 cc's restricts flow. There is also info regarding angle milling to gain compression. Glen Rarick gets 12 to 1 with flat tops in a .030 over 250 by angle milling .125" on a 194 head. A major caution in the book is to use aluminum rods in any engine that will be twisted into the 7,000 range. Have you looked into bolt in lump ports? One additional caution in the ook regards a head bolt hole that runs into the water pump cavity. Not much meat there. There is a fix but it would be best for you to get the book so you can see it. Good luck on your engine.
bobw - Bob I have the book and read most all of the points you bring up. With the block filled to the right place I don't think there is any way for me to be able to drive the car to and from the line. I think my plan "B" of a .060 over 250 with flat top pistons and full water jackets is a more do able plan. I have talked to Mike Kerby at Sissell about a couple of head plans that will not deplete the bank. One is a sportsman setup where the chambers are worked to unshroud the valves, cut out the intake bosses and install short ARP head bolt in all the intake ports, install 194/160 sbc valves. this is a good flowing setup for a 6200-6500 RPM that can use good rebuilt steel rods with ARP bolts. Mike said that lumps are only real affective on more all out race motors and he said the same thing about alum rods over 7000 RPM. The nice thing about doing his sportsman head work is that all the machine work & valves would be the same as with a lump head. You would have to do some additional machine work and add the cost of the lumps, this can be done later if I really want to go to a all out race motor. Not sure I would put that kind of cash in this type race car.
I think your power estimate is probably fairly close. We were restricted to one single barrel carb in our oval class, and .410 valve lift. With decent porting, and compression around 12-12.5 to 1, we were seeing around 165 hp at the rear wheels. Later, after I left oval racing, the class began allowing the new generation Chevy V-6's. The inliners were allowed a 500 cfm two barrel on an aftermarket intake to equalize the competition. The fastest inliner around was a 230, and it was dyno'd at 210 hp at the rear wheels at 6100 rpm. That engine lasted FOREVER, and shattered track records wherever it went. With a bit more cam and a good four barrel, I think you can get 250 hp pretty easily. One thing we did learn, was breathing did seem to trump compression, once the engines were allowed a bigger carb. Also, with stock parts, a 230 will spin faster than a 250, because of the fully counterweighted crank. They're just smoother. Of course, oval racing is VERY hard on engines, especially inline sixes with that long noodley crank. Drag racing....I'd go for the cubic inches.
Sorry, I didn't know you had read Santucci's book. Most everything I know is from reading it. No personal experience. Volume 2 of Leo Santucci's book is available on Amazon.com. How "reasonable" is the Sissell sportsman head?
Four Banger - That is some good information you have layed out. I ask a lot of question and want to do it right the first time, then make improvements as time goes on. As a life long drag racer I like all the cubic inches I can get and 11-12 CR. I plan on running 3 94's on a fabricated intake for the more nostalgia look and I also have an offy 4bl intake to try later. bobw - No need to be sorry, bad chose of wording on my part. I am better talking than writing. Any and all comments from you are appreated and welcome at any time. Don't cut your personnel experence short, "motors are motors" and your have been doing this a long time. I have the "second edition" of Leo's manual, is it the same as Volume 2? As for the cost of a sportman head from Sissell (Mike Kerby) I will have to talk to mike again as we talked a lot of different ways to go, 194/230/250 heads, chamber size, my head or a head from them, ect. I will call him and get some price figures. As a side note I just finished installing the rear ford traction lock with a new set of 3.90 gears and should be able to seal it up, add rear fluid, hang the wheels and I will finally have a "Complete Roller SDRA Car", two months late but still on track for ANRA Opener in April 2012.
Above all invest in an aftermaket balancer like Rattler or other because the crank flexes at high rpm.
Old28, You didn't word anything wrong. I made the assumption that you didn't have the book. You've been talking to Kirby, you have the book and experienced Chevy 6 guys have been posting valuable information. This thread is very helpful engine-wise. All that, and we get to watch you build the car. I ordered Volume 2 and will let you know how it compares to Volume 1, second edition.
Old Jimmy Six - I am prone to "Fluidamper" as I have used then on all my SB & BB Chevy race motor with good results. Will a SBC 6.25 or 7.25 Internal balance work? I have never ran a six cylinder so I have no idea on the type and size that would work best. I plan on running the motor in the 6500 RPM range. bobw - Bob, I agree with you that there is a lot of good information and experience out their and this is why I started asking the questions in my build thread so all that read it could check it out. I wish I had some of the stuff on six cylinder motors from my thread on "RRR", there was some real good information on building motors. Please let me know about the book when you get it.
I run a 6.25 on my GMC but I have heard that the bigger the balancer the easier it is on the crank, just BS around the work bench, so I don't know if it is true.
I should add that I run my GMC to 6000 and have hit 6500 before and the book I have for GMC motors says don't exceed 3000 rpm. I run a small block 6.25 in. Rattler. With only 4 mains it is pushing it and I am sure that the balancer has put a lot of life in the crank.
lets not carried away and build a 9 sec engine like one of our guys did ,now he has to slow it down.What we need at this stage of the game is more cars. I have been encouraging guys to build a car use a stock engine the first year.get used to a open wheel car .pick up afew tips. of course if you are a experienced racer you can skip that part.some guys are hesitate to build because they would be the only one in thearea .just remember we are like pioneers as such we are going to get some arrows in our ass.Keep up the good work Tom looking good
Old Jimmy Six - Ya 6000-6500 with a 4 mains 6 cylinder I would want a good balancer so the crank can live a little longer. I don't see any reason that I should not use a 7.25 balancer even though a 6.25 will work fine. I'll ask around some more before I start. mudflap261 - Have no fear, If I wanted to run 8's and 9's I would have kept my 29 altered. All I want to do is build a motor that can run 11.50-12.00 and stay together all season. I like to ask a lot of questions and get back as much information as I can. This build is all about using a different style motor and car, learning how to get it to leave on 6" tires and not have to rebuild it after each race. I think we have the word out on this coast that HA/GR & SDRA HAMBster's are alive, well and growing. At our ANRA races and with the cars in the Pacific Northwest anyone building a car will have a place to race and will likely find a car to run with. Fast or slow it's all about having fun and making passes.
Well it has been a good weekend of work on the car. I installed a new set of brake shoes, wheel cylinders and had the drums turned. This is a small Ford 8.8 rear end out of a 93 Mustang and only has 9" brake drums. I thought this was a good place to spend some cash to make sure the ride can stop during those all out 15 sec passes. Installed a set of 3.90 gears in the traction lock setup. This rear end is about 50# lighter than the same 9" setup and I think it will hold up fine with the Powerglide. With my big --- in the seat I need all the weight reduction I can get. Today is the day I have been looking forward to sence I hauled home the frame and 5 pieces in the back of the truck. The car is finaly a complete roller with steering, front end, rear end done and ready for the drive line phase. You have to build one of these to know how it feels to see it sitting on all four tires. I am a happy camper!!!!
Excellent. Yeah, "roller" status is always a great feeling. Almost as good as the first fire-up. Vroom-vroomin's better now, too. Now pick a picture for the picture & info thread, or I'll build a voodoo model of it and poke pins in it. You promised ......
Well you may have thought that after getting the car to a roller stage and a picture with information to (old6rodder) for his HA/GR & SDRA Photo Thread that as an old dude I needed a weeks rest and a few afternoon naps. The truth is I have been working every day on the car and have made some good progress, so where are the pictures you ask? Well it finally happened, my 9 year old "XP" computer has ran out of memory and will not even download pictures from my camera. It is so slow that it is a 20 min game just starting it up each day. The good/bad news is a new one will be here Wed so we should be back in the game, bad news is I could have used the money on the project. If all goes well I hope to have some pictures up this weekend.
bobw -- Well we got the computer up and running this afternoon and I think that 9 years with the old one was long enought. The new one is fast and downloaded my pictures from my camera in about a min, old one would not even download them. I say we because my friend set it up from his house in Camarillo and did all of it with an internet connection between the two computers. It only took him 15 min to have it up and running with all my old data in place. I would have been weeks and still not right. Well last week I got more of the chassis "Rattle Can" sprayed in preperation for dropping the motor/trans in place. The painting is working front to back. Ain't no high dollor job but it looks fine. Try to get the engine/trans pictures on in a day or two.
well i consider rustoleum high dollar paint. We use walmarts very finests 99 cent paint. looking good keep up the fine work . does anyone know if the guy who bought Ron Goldens car ever ran it
mudflap261 - I don't think he has run it in the Southern CA area. He may have run it at Sacramento as he is from the Northern CA area. Anyone know more on the car? Your right on the paint, I did not know I was using the high dollor stuff, at $1.89 a can this paint is like gold.
Well I got all the pictures downloaded that I had on the camera so I am putting in a few that show the Motor & Trans in place. I have side stepped building the 250 motor for awhile and will run a Chevy 194 for the firt part of the 2012 season. Some of you will recognize the intake & radiator from (ThingyM) build thread. I purchased the motor that Dick had in his HA/GR a few months ago and dropped it in my car with a PG trans. The motor is a stock 194" with a mild cam. I have installed a 3500 converter and a rebuilt powerglide. It will run my 2-94's on the same intake for the first few races. I really want to see what this "Baby Bolt" will do in my car before I build the bigger motor.
64 DODGE 440 - Tom, that is a day I have been looking forward to sence I started in March. I still have tons of small stuff to do so I think the "STREET TEST" is a few months away.
It looks outstanding. You're right, all those little tasks add up to lots of time spent. Still, I'm impressed with how fast you are building it. I sense excitement, motivation. Ain't it fun!
bobw - Ya you got that right, lots & lots of little things to keep my mind on the project and that light at the end of the strip. Thanks for the nice words on the build. As I said in my first thread, I'm a "racer", more than a "builder". I have really missed making passes ever sence I sold my 28 NE-2 altered roadster 2 years ago. I just want to get back on the track and make some runs again. Don't matter if they are 11.50's or 15.0's, I will be having a good time and that is what it's all about. Hope to get the last of the pictures on the thread Sunday.
The Jalopy Journal
