Wrong, different type of warfare now with different munition types. Yes cooper and steel are still used but if you knew what stock piles and what reserve buffers we have in place the impact generated by warfare is minimal. Most ore from the US is ending up over seas. Funny little fact China's military has tripled over the 22 years, what do you think most of there ships/ subs and aircraft are made from. Yes they have there own mining there, but not the mills to produce as high of quality metals. Most munitions used today are composite's " mixture of alloys, ceramics, and polymers" There is still a lot of commerical growth going on here is the US also, I mean hell you cant go 3 blocks here in Cali with out seeing another walgreens or longs drug being built. I have a question how much does it actually cost to recycle a cubic ton of steel? Not the buying price the process price??
YES, see: every tool that Harbor Freight Tools sells! Buy American! The tools are usually higher quality and will last!
Rick is Exactly Right , My dad worked in the Oil/Natural Gas industry for thirty years and everytime they tried to do anything in Santa Barbara County there were big roadblocks because of the tree-hugging people in power there. As far as us running out of oil? first of all the US has more than doubled in population in the last 30 years yet our oil consumption is the same as it was then due to energy efficiency. Furthemore, My dad also consulted for the Naval Oil Reserves over near Taft and trust me were not running out anytime soon!
The steel industry here sure isn't what it used to be. Into the 40s we had mills capable of casting giant single piece steam locomotive frames - the frame and the cylinder saddle was one huge piece. So you're talking a cast piece that's a good 10 feet wide at the widest point and 40, 50 feet long in some cases, with bores for cylinders in one section, cavities for axle bearings to ride, and so on. Not that long ago (maybe 10 years now) some folks discussed recreating locomotives from the blueprints that no single example remains existing because all were scrapped long ago. The consensus was for anything beyond a small locomotive, the frame at the least would have to be cast somewhere overseas - we no longer have the capacity or technology to cast large, high-quality parts of that nature anymore. Meanwhile, China built steam locomotives into the early 1990s, and it's not that they can't build them any longer, it's just that the diesel finally became cheap enough for them to purchase to replace the steam engines.
The capacity maybe, technology..no. Its not the technology that hinders us, its the cost to stand up a production line and the tooling and material required. We refined the process, produced it and did it the best. Doing it again wouldnt be hard, if you could afford it. The problem that is wrong with 80% of companys today is the first question they ask is whats the ROI "Return on investment" Nobody in that position is going to pump that kind of funds into a process like that when he can do it at a fraction of the cost somewhere else, and reap the rewards. How do you fix it, remove that mind set.
RustyNY, I'm the director of the Ohio Valley chapter of the National Steam Enthusiast Club. I'm also a certified steam engineer. [only about 300 of us in the country] I was involved with the "reproduction project" of a Northern type 4-8-4. Actually, it was the other way around. The only foundaries that were capable of casting the frame were American outfits. The prime candidate was a ship foundry in Va., but they had their hands full with current orders. We then sought foreign foundries to cast the frame, but quickly discovered they [chinese] lacked the technical expertiese to meet the quality standards that we [americans] had mastered in the 1930's. The project was put on the back burner untill about 8 years ago when China decided to retire their steam fleet, and we decided to purchase 4 chinese built Quin Jinzhou 2-8-2 passenger/freight steam locomotives and have them rebuilt to meet U.S. transportation standards. The Q-Z locomotive works [in china] was contracted to handle the rebuilds.... And that has been a disaster!!! Tho the chinese 2-8-2's were essentially coppies of 1930's model Baldwin G.P. freight steam models, the quality and construction was abismal! Almost every piece on them had cracks and flaws, poorly fitted parts, and downright dangerous problems. To date, only 2 of them have been imported. A 3rd is in the works. The 4th may be scrapped entirely because of the "chinese" quality and safety problems. The general consensus among club members is that we probably should have waited and built american instead of importing.
If ANYONE doubts that American quality and technology is not still alive and well, consider the following... The Toyota plants in Ky, In, Tn, and Tx are running full speed 24-7. The Subaru plant in In, is adding a 3rd shift and weekend overtime. Same story at the Nissan plant in Ohio. These are considered some of the highest quality automobiles in the world, but 60% of the cars mnufactured at these plants are exported to other countries. Tho the Japanese are supposed to be the worlds "electronics guru's", every computer in Japan [worldwide for that matter] is built around American technology, using American manufactured components, and running 100% american developed software,,, without exception! The Chairman of Toyota Motors recently said: "American workers are some of the best on the planet. They are smart, hard working, and creative. If there is a problem with a product or procedure, they are not afraid to bring it to the attention of management, and work with management to solve the problem. Some of our best ideas over the past 20 years have come from the minds of regular assembly line workers in our American assembly plants. I am very proud of our American work force." In the peoples republic of China, the #1 most desired luxury item is a Buick made in America, tho almost all of China's emerging middle class has had to settle for a Chinese made copy of an American Buick, complete with MPH on the speedo, and english lettering on the dash-board switches. Not a German BMW or Mercedes... Not a British Bently or Jaguar... China has sought to buy into the american dream by emulating american culture right down to beer and baseball games... Not the "world sport" of soccer... Infact, the best known athlete in China is playing on an AMERICAN Basketball team!!!!! They have bought [and stolen] our technology, only to back-engineer it, copy it with a .30 cent per hour workforce, and sell it worldwide at firesale prices...... Only they have NEVER figured out how to match our quality. They have bought our junk, driving the price of scrap iron and steel thru the roof because they have not been able to figure out how to mine iron ore safely, productively, and cost effectively,,,, even tho they [china] sit on HUGE iron ore deposits. They have developed their infrastructure around fossil fuel power plants because, even tho they call themselves a superpower, they lack the technical expertiese to build neuclear powerplants, and under the old comunist regeims, imported inferior [deadly] technology from russia. [just ask them about Chernobyl ] Pretty soon, we, as Americans, are going to have to wake up and take our country back from those in Washington who have sought to push us down for their own financial and political gain. Untill that happens, I wont worry too much about Japan and China, because any way you look at it, we are still the greatest nation the world has ever seen!<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->
This is a good thread it makes you think. I don't agree with most of what I have read. I am a union man and feel its corporate greed that is to blame.I worked for a steel shop that was told by US steel it was not big enough to buy steel from then.We started buying steel with outher shops around the area from korea and japan.
I was meeting with a steel fabricator today to dscuss a contract for an upcoming building project. It's a large contract, several thousand tons. They told me, contrary to popular belief,that the American steel industry is coming back. It's mostly in the south, and much smaller mills than before, but far more efficient than the old mills. I grew up in youngstown, Ohio and worked in the mills along with my Dad. Given the inefficiency of those old plants and the abuses of the union, there was no way that industry was going to survive. We are going to produce approximately 130 million tons of steel this year, with 20 million tons being exported to overseas markets. In 5 yrs they expect production to exceed any previous years totals, even back in the 60's. They are gearing up to start fabricating portions of a new stainless mill being built. They have 7 fabricating plants and they can only handle a portion of this contract because its massive.
As to the US steel Industry and "no iron ore mines in the US, I read in the Marquette (Michigan) Mining Journal that Cleveland Cliffs mining, which operates the Iron Mines in Upper Michigan had record profits in 2007. Also, we're finding that with the devaluation of the dollar, the US is now being looked at as a low cost producer of Auto Parts! Alan
I think that's most of it. I'm sure some of us would love to believe in some kind of worldwide conspiracy theory in which we get screwed, but I think it's mostly simple economics. 1. It's cheap to remelt scrap steel compared to smelting iron ore. 2. Increased fuel cost has increased the cost of mining, which makes scrap iron more attractive. 3. A weakened US dollar makes US exports of scrap much more attractive to foreign buyers. 4. Return-trips on foreign shipping vessels are often discounted since there are more imports coming to the US than there are exports. So there is the opportunity for cheap shipping of raw and processed materials. 5. There have been advancements in the last 20 years or so in recycling technology, making recycling metals more profitable. Like someone mentioned, there are even ways to make use of the "soft materials" in shredded car bodies, stuff like plastic, vinyl and foam. All these things came together at the right time to make scrap metals more valueable. It's been good for me, I get paid real money to bring in picked-over car bodies and misc. junk when I'm done saving all the valueable parts off of them. I'm not afraid to jump on buying parts cars anymore since I know I can recoup much of my purchase price just on the steel that's left over.
I've talked with several steel fabricators in the last few weeks and all of them had one common problem. They were forced to get more efficient, doing more with less people, because they cant find help. I hear it from everybody. They cant find welders, fitters, drill press operators etc. One company bought a machine to use on their beam line that does nothing but full pen welds. It takes approx 1 hour to set it up for each beam, then it takes approx 1 hour to do the welding. It takes a welder 8 hrs to do the same operation. They would use humans if they could get them but they can't so they have to go to machines. I think its time in this country that we realize that not every kid is college material and start a real apprenticeship program in high schools. It's stupidity to think a kid is better off going out and getting a teaching degree and make 35k a yr, as opposed to becoming a painter or a welder or a mechanic and make 50k +.
The Chinese are not just buying scrap. They are buying all the ore they can get out of Australia ( we have HEAPS ). They would buy more, but we can't dig it out any faster. There is no conspiracy ~ they have a BILLION people, most of whom have been living in an 18th century environment. Now they want to live like us. Can't say I blame them. The quality of their products is poor - for the moment. Not that long ago Japanese stuff was crap ( help me out here old-er guys ) but now its right up with the best in the world. Re; trading oil on margin. Was it not trading on margin that caused The Great Depression? Its all well and good to blame big business ( and some of them sure deserve it ) but its WE THE PEOPLE who buy this crap at the lowest possible price. Equal blame lies with the illiterate slobs who shop at the $2 store.
Exactly, but the government hasn't given any indication that it is at all concerned about the price of oil. Isn't it ironic that the silver crash in 1980 was a result of the Hunt brothers, Texas oil tycoons, trying to corner the market. China can afford to pay high prices for resources (including scrap), look at the balance of trade figures. There are lots of places to blame, consumers for accepting a cheap foreign made product, manufacturers for trying to increase profits (it's been rumored that Wal-Mart told their suppliers to move manufacturing to China), all of those Harvard and Yale MBA's who think profits are more easily made by closing a business down and selling it off than by actually running the business. I place a lot of blame on the whole Wall Street mentality that demands higher and higher profits and values a company only if it manages to meet the Wall Street analyists' projections. gary
There are a few reasons for high prices, but the main one is that India and China, which each have over 1 billion people, are experiencing their own Industrial Revolutions. Of course, outside $$ from the US, and other countries, in the form of outsourced jobs, manufacturing, etc has helped them along. India and China are now building cars, soon to come to the US if they can meet the standards. They are building cities, bridges, and dams as well. The US dollar is falling daily, so it is attractive for foreign investors to buy Oil, steel, and everything else right now. Basically it is money in the bank right now. Our local steel processors do not have enough product to fill their orders, so the price keeps going higher. They cut their margins so they don't go under. the scrap business is at a triple your $$ standard, but they are going to double just to get the material. It is not finished going up. I have predictions from my buyers that would make your head spin.
I am 4th generation in the scrap business. Thanks for clearing this up for the ignorant who feel they need to hear themselves rattle!
I like that idea. I see it everyday. Kids all messed up. they think a new car design is really cool, but when you put a wrench in their hand, they look at you like your insane. tok
13 years, I spend more time welding than doing homework. I figure I'd rather be spending my time and effort getting better and better at what I'm hoping to do for a living than be learning about some bogus way to write a 15 page expository essay. I can write already... I'd rather be doing something in life that I'm happy with unlike what my own folks did and getting degrees that they didn't even use for their desk jobs. If it pays less than having some stupid technical degree like their training us for, than I'm fine with that. In 20 years I hope there are still some people doing something for a trade.. School IS important, just not interesting.. It's like stocks.. Some people get into it but most probably don't..
Rode behind one. Knox & Kane might have a deal on one, cheap, if the insurance ever settles. Slightly crispy, but the running gear (wheels, etc) might be usable. That I know of, the locomotives exported new about the end of production never had reported problems of that nature. Rebuilds with now obsolete parts, you might get the stuff that wasn't quite good enough to use before, but is all they have left now -
well this what I do to feed the family, Most everything is going to China, iron ,copper,and brass. The reason Cars bring more money than just plain iron is that they shred the cars up and take out all the alum. copper and brass. I hope this helps????
I call BS on the union issue. I have been in the work force for 40 years and have never been a union member. There is no union plant that is run by a union. Management makes the decisions and options to give the union worker what management deems fair. The unions seem to get the blame when it is the management that has no balls and makes many poor decisions. Big money is running this country. Our government representitives, both legislative and executive passing laws to bennefit big money and to hell with the working man. Our government is allowing hundreds of thousands of good paying jobs to leave this country to bennefit big money. We won WWII because of our industry which quickly tooled up a fantastic "War Machine". This War Machine no longer exists and if we get into a real war we are in deep doo doo. Bush keeps the fear level up and talks about securing our country but he allows, no encourages, our war machine to move to Mexico and China. I fear that we have some very hard times coming in the next few years. I hope that our country and government survives it in the form it used to be. In addition to fearring terrorist , we had better fear our government. Our brilliant forefathers wrote the constitution to constrain government because they feared government. I hope that we have not lost that lesson. Sorry for the rambling rant
What is this some kind of environmental discussion? next thing you know crazy old coots are going to be discussing granola and what brand of soy milk you guys eat in the morning hahahhahaha hahah ahah a just kidding
China has built 6 new nuclear plants since the 1990s. They are planning to build a lot more. They use some Russian designs (not like Chernobyl) as well as French (industry standard) and Canadian (very safe) plant designs. They also have several nuclear submarines, including at least 2 ballistic missile subs. In certain aspects they have a lot more technology than you think. By the way the new designs, planning on being used in the building of new nuclear plants, in the US are primarily European. Even though it's not said often, they (China) militarily, are one of our worst fears due to sheer manpower and technology. I spent 8 years on 2 nuclear subs and currently am an Operator at a Nuclear Power plant but what do I know?
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