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Technical School me on small block fords.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by rusty rocket, May 16, 2020.

  1. rusty rocket
    Joined: Oct 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,825

    rusty rocket
    Member

    I did a search but really didn't find what I was looking for. I have had small block Chevys in several cars and it seems to be a bolt things together and you are set. So what is involved on a sbf In say a model A? I know the bronco pan and oil pump but isn't there a certain water pump to use and the correct flex plate/flywheel combo with certain engines? What else?
     
  2. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 4,018

    Boneyard51
    Member

    There’s a lot of stuff when it comes to the sbf!






    Bones
     
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  3. 51504bat
    Joined: May 22, 2010
    Posts: 1,830

    51504bat
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Different balance weights/methods, water pump rotation, etc. I'd try to find a donor car with the engine and trans combo that you want to use and then go from there. JMO
     
  4. The main issue with SBF swaps is engine length. The 289/302 is quite a bit narrower than a SBC, height is about the same. The 351W is about the same width as the Chevy, but taller. Because the distributor is in the front, you can crowd the engine closer to the firewall which does help a bit with the length.

    Oil pans can get complicated; if you have the room, a front sump pan will be the easiest solution as they can be fitted to any motor as long as you use a front sump type timing cover. Rear sump pans come in several types. Some have no dipstick provision, you need a block drilled for the stick. Ford drilled the 302 blocks for dipsticks starting in '83, some 351W were drilled in the late '80s/'90s. Some pans have the provision for a stick, but those can leak. Most early Fords (up to about '35) can usually use a front sump, '36-53 need a rear sump, and '54 well into the '70s (with a few exceptions) are front sump.

    There's various 'shorty' water pumps available, some factory. These usually need a specific timing cover to fit. Plus some aftermarket conversions, I believe Snow White sells about the shortest version, but not the only conversion.

    Engine balance. Ford small blocks have external balance weights on the flywheel/damper. 289/302 up to '81 are 28 oz balance, newer are 50 oz. This was done to reduce crankshaft weight. All 351W are 28 oz. Manual trans flywheels are easy to get in either balance. Not so much for flexplates. If trans swapping, you'll need an aftermarket conversion flexplate if using a C4 with a 50 oz balance or a AOD with a 28 oz balance as Ford didn't build these combos.
     
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  5. Tired of the SBC

    HERE IS YOUR ANSWERS

    prd_lg_10.jpg

    hqdefault.jpg
     
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  6. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 5,733

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Had to relocate the oil filter once in a deuce.
    The Vega box didn’t like where it was at.
    The rest has been covered.
    The biggest issue was always the pan. Plenty of info and parts out there to straighten that out.
     
  7. Beanscoot
    Joined: May 14, 2008
    Posts: 1,409

    Beanscoot
    Member

    An important difference is the bellhousing pattern. Early 289 (and all 221, 260) engines have a five bolt bellhousing which is smaller than the later six bolt, but are not easily bolted up to five speed transmissions. They do fit "modern" toploader transmissions though.

    The Mustang II used an even smaller bellhousing (with matching clutch or torque convertor parts, and even oil pan) which could be handy in very tight trans tunnels.

    The six bolt bellhousings started in 1965.
     
  8. rusty rocket
    Joined: Oct 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,825

    rusty rocket
    Member

    Damn this all seems complicated.
     
  9. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 5,733

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Nope. Ya just have to learn the speak Ford.
    Then it all kinda makes sense. Like transmissions. Early sb 5 bolt then 6 bolt. 240/300 6cyl have the sb pattern but don’t mix up the flywheels. A 351C has a sb bolt pattern. A351M has the 400 and 429/460 bolt pattern. FEs have their own bolt pattern. Yblocks have their own bolt pattern and truck and car transmissions can have different bolt patterns to the bell and input shaft differences.
    The FL1A oil filter fits most of those.
     
  10. tjm73
    Joined: Feb 17, 2006
    Posts: 3,367

    tjm73
    Member

    It's easier to work the particulars from an engine forward. Do you have a specific engine in mind? 289? 70's 302? 80's 302, 5.0 from the early 90's? They all have their own quirks.
     
  11. Beanscoot
    Joined: May 14, 2008
    Posts: 1,409

    Beanscoot
    Member

    ...and there's a rare 400 engine with dual bellhousing patterns, the second one a small block six bolt.

    ...and the small sixes (144 to 200) with their own two patterns plus kind of the small block V8 pattern.

    Don't forget the change in the small block engine mount bolt spacing in '63. And they lost the threaded boss for the clutch equalizer bar sometime around 1970.

    Did we talk yet about three bolt vs. four bolt (except trucks) vibration dampers that came in different balances and lengths?

    And don't forget the 351W lost four intake manifold bolt holes around 1975, and the first two years (1969 and '70) had 9.48" deck height vs. 9.50" after.

    Etc. etc.
     
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  12. Roothawg
    Joined: Mar 14, 2001
    Posts: 19,712

    Roothawg
    Member

    From what Alan Grove (The bracket mfg) says is there are 28 different water pump configurations.
     
  13. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 5,034

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    When you consider that the SBC/BBC have the same bellhousing pattern, and even some parts like lifters, distributors (SBC and 9.8" deck height BBC), flywheels (internal balance), clutch/pressure plate and some starters interchange then it does make the Ford offerings seem like Pandoras box.
     
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  14. JUSTIN PERSINGER
    Joined: Apr 28, 2020
    Posts: 95

    JUSTIN PERSINGER
    Member

    I built my first 302 about two years ago and I cussed it the whole time. I've been a SBC guy all my life, I have two of those sitting in my garage now.
    But Fords they are something else! Mine was a 78' 302, and my only advice I can give is take lots of pics and remember what bolts came out of where on the water pump/timing cover.....I did not!

    Sent from my XP8800 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
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  15. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 4,151

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    One thing to add on flex plates and transmissions----there is a late C4, sometimes called a C5 because some of those had a lockup style torque converter, that is a pan fill, so called because the dipstick goes into the side of the oil pan instead of the transmission case. These use a torque converter with the same bolt spacing as the AOD overdrive transmission. They were 50 oz imbalance, used in the late 70's to mid 80's. I had a C4 from a 351W equipped Granada that I joined to a 302 taken from an 85 T Bird 50 oz imbalance, the flexplate and torque converter went together like they had always been together. Mine was not the lockup style converter, I think they may have came a little later. The case fill torque converter will not fit a factory 50 oz imbalance flex plate, you have to go aftermarket for that combo.
     
  16. Beanscoot
    Joined: May 14, 2008
    Posts: 1,409

    Beanscoot
    Member

    "From what Alan Grove (The bracket mfg) says is there are 28 different water pump configurations."

    What do you think the odds are that he missed one or two!
     
  17. wildwest
    Joined: Jan 20, 2007
    Posts: 228

    wildwest
    Member

    I like Fords and Chevys, but it's apparent why Chevs are so popular ! My last 32 had a 302 and C4, worked fine but my bellhousing cracked, no problem right ? I think there are over 30 different bellhousings for a C4 !!!! some will interchange, some will not....on the third one it was close enough to work !
     
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  18. JeffB2
    Joined: Dec 18, 2006
    Posts: 8,255

    JeffB2
    Member
    from Phoenix,AZ

  19. ***Area-51***
    Joined: Mar 25, 2005
    Posts: 690

    ***Area-51***
    Member
    from Ohio

    Ok, they're not that bad....one bite at a time..

    1 Main thing is using the right oil pan
    2 Short water pump pulleys are available as a set or individual and they pop upon ebay
    3 know what you have, the rest can be handled with a little homework and asking ford guys

    https://www.amazon.com/Short-Water-Pulley-Racing-V-Belt/dp/B00424QRUM

    https://www.cvfracing.com/ford-289-302-351w-v-belt-system-alternator-only-shorty-water-pump/

    https://www.cvfracing.com/ford/ford...MIkJOH_tW66QIVBgiICR1D4QeZEAAYASAAEgK7TPD_BwE
     
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  20. texasred
    Joined: Dec 3, 2008
    Posts: 1,061

    texasred
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Houston

    Best suited for scrapyards
     
  21. samurai mike
    Joined: Feb 24, 2009
    Posts: 459

    samurai mike
    Member

    can you imagine the inventory in the parts dept. of a dealer in the 60's!
     
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  22. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,238

    George
    Member

    "How to rebuild your small block Ford" by Tom Monroe is a good basic book for the mid 70s & earlier small blocks.
     
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  23. George
    Joined: Jan 1, 2005
    Posts: 7,238

    George
    Member

    Any other genius level comments?
     
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  24. anthony myrick
    Joined: Sep 4, 2009
    Posts: 5,733

    anthony myrick
    Member

    Built a few fords and repaired several foreign car engines before building a sbc.
    Installed a few but hadn’t built one yet.
    Ray Charles could build one of those.
    I like the ford cam thrust plate and rocker arms.
    The ford timing covers requires the ability to use logic on bolt length. Not hard.
    Everything else is bout the same.
    The external stuff is where the sbc is simpler to fit in old cars.
     
  25. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 4,151

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    Ford had a tendency to design engine parts to fit a certain body, instead of a body to fit a certain engine. If you know what body your SBF came out of originally, you can usually find the correct matching parts. Therein lies the problem though, if you buy an engine that nobody knows what it was in to start with, you have to do a little detective work. They also were constantly improving parts, so mid year changes were normal, throwing another variable in the mix. Then when you have to change stuff, you sometimes end up with parts that don't play well together. That's why if I buy an engine, I try to get one as complete as possible, with all pulleys, brackets, etc on it, even if I plan on changing that stuff, I have a baseline to start with.
     
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  26. I like the SBF engine. Its a good engine but like stated earlier, its best to get the whole engine/trans or even a donor car to start with so you have all the right parts. I wanted to move the alternator from one side to the other on my SBF and I had to change the front timing cover and convert from a 4 bolt harmonic damper to the earlier 3 bolt setup. Nothing lined up until I got the whole shebang from another engine.
    Fords are definitely different.....
     
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  27. Boneyard51
    Joined: Dec 10, 2017
    Posts: 4,018

    Boneyard51
    Member

    There’s your answer and reason for so many different Ford parts. Ford was always trying to improve their vehicles, hence the mid year changes. Did it actually improve it or was it really necessary? Not sure. But it does make swapping parts both fun and difficult, due to so many different parts. Chevy on the other hand, never changed anything. You could put a light switch out of a older truck into a newer car! Same with the engine pan and brackets, very few modifications. It’s just two schools of thought and practice. I for one, being a Ford man, like the fact that Ford did all the crazy stuff back then...... makes for more fun hunting rare stuff and knowing that there are many different brackets out there to put the alternator on either side, up or down. Keeps you on your toes.








    Bones BFF4D871-9D57-4207-BC23-38F01C575F3D.jpeg
     
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  28. A bit of clarification may be in order here....

    If you're unlucky enough to end up with a 5-bolt block, sell it to a restorer and buy something newer. And transmission interchange with later stuff is extremely limited. The 'standard' production parts won't interchange. When Ford made the switch to the 6-bolt, they literally dumped all of the 5-bolt stuff. All the remaining motors were donated to high school/voc-tech auto shop programs (except for the 260 for a short time into the '65 model year; maybe they had more than they wanted take the loss on), but this left Ford with nothing to service warranty claims in the event of a bad motor or trans. The solution was some 6-bolt 'service' parts, specifically manual bellhousings with both patterns, trans drilled for both. Some of these leaked into general production, but were gone within 3-4 years. You can't drill the single-pattern aluminum 6-bolt bells for the early trans as there's not enough meat in the casting. Ford built some rare cast-iron truck 6-bolt bells that sometimes can be redrilled, but I believe these had a longer block-to-trans face distance (like the similar truck FE bells). I suspect the 5-to-6 bolt swap is also the reason the C4 has a removable bell, unlike nearly all other 'modern' automatics.

    The motor mount issue was limited to the 221 and early 260, not very desirable motors even when new. The clutch equalizer boss disappeared off the 302 in '75, but aftermarket replacement brackets are available. The 351W kept the boss until the end, but Ford stopped machining it at some point in the late '70s/'80s.

    The 351W lost those 'extra' intake bolts when Ford started using 302 heads on them in cars/trucks. The 'good' D0 351W heads did live on, but were only used in marine applications on both 302 and 351s. If you can find a marine set, they came with screw-in rocker studs from the factory.

    Dampers, timing covers, water pumps... Yeah, it can get complicated, but it doesn't have to.

    Dampers are relatively simple; up to '69 they're 3-bolt, '70 up is 4-bolt. This is because with the introduction of the 351 in '69, Ford started installing these more in the larger cars. Power steering, AC and in some cases smog pumps put a larger load on the pulleys and there were some lower pulley failures. Again, the 3-bolt damper lived on in marine, well into the '80s. You could even find a 3-bolt 50oz version. Everything except the '82-up 302 was 28oz. I'm not aware of any length differences, although there are some diameter variations. The aftermarket has this covered if need be.

    Timing covers and water pumps is where it gets weird...

    Initially, Ford used a aluminum cover/water pump combo with a passenger-side inlet '62-65. These were popular with the racers 'back in the day' as it was lighter than the later set-ups with the iron pump. Some guys now like the 62-63 version as those had the oil fill in the cover, making valve cover swaps easier. But Ford discovered these had issues. The oil fill cover (along with the intake manifold location of the PVC valve) did a poor job of evacuating condensation out of the motor promoting sludge build-up in the rocker covers, so in '64 Ford moved both to the rocker covers (note that virtually every other manufacturer followed suit eventually). Additionally, they found that the aluminum timing cover which supplied the 'back' of the pump chamber could suffer corrosion/erosion in use, leading to fears of dumping water into the crankcase. If you decide to use one of these, check for that; I've seen a few leakers. The water pump bearings were bit light for accessory loads too, another reason for replacement.

    In late '65 Ford switched to an aluminum cover/iron pump set-up, still passenger-side inlet. Then in '70 they started using drivers-side inlets due to cross-flow radiators and added the 4-bolt lower pulley. The passenger side pump was still in use in some cars, but gained a bit of length. This cover is the most common one; it was used as late as '87, and is available as a new reproduction. There were a bunch of minor variations, mostly timing pointers and knock sensors at the very end, but the basic cover has a wide interchange. Water pumps, pick which side outlet you need, just don't try mixing 3 and 4 bolt parts; that way lies madness. I'll even give you a couple of parts numbers: 3-bolt dampers/pass side inlet, Airtex AW 1028. 4-bolt, drivers side Airtex AW953. These fit the smaller cars; Mustangs (not twos), Falcons, Fairlanes, Torinos, Granadas, etc with 289/302s. Steel crank/water pump pulleys for both combinations are available as repos. Alternator brackets for the 289/302 are also commonly available, for the 351 you can use most of the 302 stuff but will need to find/build the upper water pump-to-alternator pivot bracket, not tough to do. I'll note that the 3-bolt set-up is marginally 'shorter' by about .140".

    Power steering or AC? I'll be the first to admit that Ford built some pretty ugly bracket setups for these, and God help you if you try to mix parts. I scratch-built mine (late pump, early cover/pump), you may have to do the same.

    Need something shorter yet? If you want V-belts, you'll be at the mercy of the aftermarket. Not too much out there for V-belts, you'll have more luck with a serpentine set-up if you can take the non-trad looks...
     
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  29. Beanscoot
    Joined: May 14, 2008
    Posts: 1,409

    Beanscoot
    Member

    Much confusion in the Ford small block world is caused by late 1964 Mustangs being considered 1965 models (or enthusiasts considering "1964-1/2" cars as 1965s). That is why there is belief that the five bolt bellhousings continued into 1965.

    Five bolt bellhousings ended in 1964 model year, six bolts started in 1965.

    But as enthusiasts, we enjoy all this complication, right?
     

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