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sbf/short water pump/pulleys

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by stepchild, Oct 22, 2008.

  1. ***Area-51***
    Joined: Mar 25, 2005
    Posts: 690

    ***Area-51***
    Member
    from Ohio

    anybody running a ford racing short water pump/v belt on sbf ?

    read somewhere that you had to run the ford racing pullies...is this true?

    what pulleys you running with this set up?
     
  2. I'm also interested in possible answers as a newbie to SBF for my '28. I'm hoping to go with stock but might be forced to go short.

    Ford racing catalog shows street rod short v-belt water pump M-8501-E351S requires pulley set single groove pulleys M-8509-Q.

    I also heard that Ford Explorer V-8 had a short water pump. Don't know year or v belt applications.

    Anxious to hear any input.
     
  3. movingviolation
    Joined: Feb 19, 2005
    Posts: 1,174

    movingviolation
    Member

    I'm all ears.............i gotta get ready to stuff my RPU with a 302 soooooooooo whats the scoop!!
     
  4. David Totten
    Joined: Nov 21, 2005
    Posts: 248

    David Totten
    Member

    Snow White in Fresno makes an adaptor that uses a Volvo water pump works great
     

  5. JeffB2
    Joined: Dec 18, 2006
    Posts: 8,485

    JeffB2
    Member
    from Phoenix,AZ

    I fought the SBF pulley mess in my '54 Ford,I have an '84 302 from a MK VII the lower hose is on the drivers side.I wanted to get rid of all the serpentine junk since I don't have power steering and don't want a smog pump either.'85 and later 5.0's aka 302's also are reverse flow water pumps.The 65-69 289-302 water pumps are 5.42" from casting to hub and passenger side outlets, after 1970 they are 5.70 casting to hub and finding single and dual pulleys are rare because '70 and later usually had A/C,air pumps and power steering.The after market alternator brackets you see commonly available for 289-302's are for 65-69 mounting,to make things even more confusing Ford changed the Harmonic balancers too,1965-1969 are drilled for 3 bolt crank pulleys,70 and later balancers are 4 bolt these early models are a 28 oz balance,1980 and later are 50 oz balance.To make it even more confusing the balancer heights are different which can make your pulleys not line up.1963-69 SBF's damper length are 3.050",1970-96 are 3.950".So here is the solution for a short pump,Professional Products makes their balancers in both 28oz and 50 oz (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Professiona...c-Balancer-Damper-50-oz-SBF-302-/380432859659) and are made to the early damper height to match up to the early short water pump,they are also drilled for 3 and 4 bolt pulleys,if you use a later pulley setup spacers are available.Speedway has these balancers also under their house brand around $100 part#910-15365.Since I already had a new long pump and driver's side radiator.I ended up with a March set I got on ebay.Chrome V-belt pulley sets for the early pump and balancer are available on ebay for around $80,overall you will gain 3"-4" of clearance with the early pump,however the lower hose will be on the pass side instead of the drivers side.In the first two pictures below you will see a 1984 302 with the long pump and March pulley set notice a slim line electric fan was used to clear the radiator a conventional fan was a "NO GO", in the third picture you can see the clearance gained in a '54 Ford w/302 and the early short pump,you wouldn't think the difference in pump and damper length would be that dramatic but a lot has to do with the later pulley depth being a factor.
     

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    Last edited: May 6, 2014
  6. Primered Forever
    Joined: Jul 7, 2008
    Posts: 296

    Primered Forever
    Member
    from Joplin,MO

    It is true that you have to run the Ford Racing Pulleys with the standard rotation water pump. I did this about 4 years ago on a 29 sedan. It worked very well. I went to do the same thing last winter on my 30 coupe and the pump is still available but the pulleys were discontinued. I believe the pulleys were made by March for this application but not for sure. The Explorer pump is the same length but reverse rotation so it will have to run off of the back of the belt. I just recessed a little deeper and ran the long pump on this one. I would like to know if someone out there is making pulleys for this.
     
  7. Great info guys. There must be more rodders out there who have worked through this problem. No wonder most rods use SBC.
     
  8. dodgord
    Joined: May 23, 2007
    Posts: 78

    dodgord
    Member

    over here we use a conversion that utilises a holden 6 cylinder pump , which i imagine is similar to a chev 250 pump - check this out - www.rodshop.com.au/catalogues/AccessoryProducts.pdf -
     
  9. ***Area-51***
    Joined: Mar 25, 2005
    Posts: 690

    ***Area-51***
    Member
    from Ohio

    any idea what the snow white cast? any pics?

    Jeffb2, good info...thanks


    some of you serious ford guys know this stuff inside and out....come on, spit out your secrets
     
  10. I'm interested in this too.
     
  11. Dirk35
    Joined: Mar 8, 2001
    Posts: 2,032

    Dirk35
    Member

    The easiest way is to find a complete older Ford vehicle intact and just take its entire set. Trucks will have a narrower (in the engine bay, thus taller) set-up, than cars will.

    I wanted to keep all billit off my truck and after much gathering, I ended up with 9 different pulleys between the water pump and the Balancer alone (one of them was a 4 belt pulley) and still couldnt get a combination that would work! I eventually took the easy route and called March Pulleys and they had me go out into the garage with the phone and measure a bazallion different reference points. They then told me what part numberes I needed to order, and I ordered them and they all fit.

    If you are intent on going with stock pulleys, I suggest you get a yard that doesnt mind you pulling them and taking them back after you clean them up as it will be a pain.
     
  12. i'm workin on this pulley issue also. got a 1980 302 out of a pick up, and when i put it in a 29 roadster the motor sat too far back with that long water pump. then saw the short water pump available and got it from summit. now the motor will sit forward and the trips will be more centered. now came the pulleys, can't find anything from ford racing, guess it was mentioned above the pulleys were discontinued. so since i'm into pontiacs i went to the pulley stash. pontiac water pump pulleys have the same bolt pattern as the ford racing pump and the center hole has to be enlarged to 3/4" plus you will need one of those spacer kits to keep it from rubbing the driver side water outlet. crank pulley has same diameter center hole and the 4 mounting bolt holes have to be enlarged to ford diameter. only problem right now is the pulleys are a large diameter so they hit/interfere. i might order a march #1614 pulley at 5 1/2" diameter to see how it fits length wise and just turn down the diameter at tad for clearance. i don't have the water pump pulley pn right now or the diameter and depth but can post it later. also for a spacer pontiac had those aluminum fan spacers and you can get one at a yard and trim it to the desired length. i'm working with single groove v belt pulleys. nothing i hate than to see a single belt with two groove pulleys on a motor.
     
  13. mark-h-a
    Joined: Sep 27, 2005
    Posts: 85

    mark-h-a
    Member
    from Corona, CA

    I dealt with this same issue with my 302 in my '32 Coupe. I bought the ford racing short water pump (pn#M-8501-E351S) and then found out the hard way that ford racing and march at the time did not make v-belt pulleys for the pump.

    I wound up using a high volume pump that is the standard length, but before I decided to go this route I called Ford.

    They confirmed that they no longer made v-belt pulleys for the pump. They did tell me that there is a small company (can't remember the name) near them in MI that still makes the v-belt pulleys for it. I would call their tech line at (800) FORD788 and ask them for the company name.

    Just fyi... Walker now sells a very slim electric fan on shroud that is a total of 2 5/8" thick and kicks ass. I just recently upgraded to this unit and it blows some air, but requires a 70 amp relay.

    Hope that helps.
     
  14. meteor
    Joined: Mar 17, 2006
    Posts: 443

    meteor
    Member

     
  15. continentaljohn
    Joined: Jul 24, 2002
    Posts: 4,629

    continentaljohn
    Member

    I had and have a set one was made by Street & performance and the other Ford motorsport and the last one by me:D. The bottom pulley is flat and easy to make the water pump is a bit harder but still fairly easy for the single groove. I used a early bronco smog pump for the Alt bracket and mounts it low on the pass side. I also use the 90 degree oilfilter adapter . I have a extra set if you need some sizes:D
     
  16. spiffy1937
    Joined: Apr 9, 2006
    Posts: 729

    spiffy1937
    Member
    from Florida

    I think Summit Racing has the parts.
     
  17. Dirk35
    Joined: Mar 8, 2001
    Posts: 2,032

    Dirk35
    Member

    Forgot to add......... here is the pictures of my pulleys. It was easy, but not traditional looking. They dont look bad since they dont have those holes drilled in them though.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. ***Area-51***
    Joined: Mar 25, 2005
    Posts: 690

    ***Area-51***
    Member
    from Ohio

    jeez, what a pain....
     
  19. Capt. Zorro
    Joined: Nov 30, 2004
    Posts: 557

    Capt. Zorro
    Member

    Yep it's a pain. I ended up taking the front cover and water pump off an old 289 for the 5.0 in my old T. I had to scrounge through the shop to find a water pump pulley that would line up. Think it came off a Buick engine, re-drilled the holes to fit the Ford pump and turned off the end groove on the crank pulley to get enough room. But $300.00 for pulleys seems a little high to me...
     
  20. Dirk35
    Joined: Mar 8, 2001
    Posts: 2,032

    Dirk35
    Member

    Yes, it was pricey too! :(
     
  21. ***Area-51***
    Joined: Mar 25, 2005
    Posts: 690

    ***Area-51***
    Member
    from Ohio

    called snow white today ...$305 waterpump/pulley's unpolished

    ford short pump..........$150 and your on your own for pulley's
     
  22. no55mad
    Joined: Dec 15, 2006
    Posts: 1,859

    no55mad
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    How about Sunbeam Tiger pump and pulleys? They used a small block Ford.
     
    Landmine 55 likes this.
  23. jmthehermit
    Joined: May 4, 2006
    Posts: 66

    jmthehermit
    Member
    from Bath, Pa.

    The engines for Sunbeam Tigers came from the industrial division of Ford. The crank pulley was from a forklift application.
     
  24. Weasel
    Joined: Dec 30, 2007
    Posts: 6,694

    Weasel
    Member

    I think they actually use an Opel water pump from a 1.6 or 1.9L 4 cyl. I have the kit on a 351C.
     
  25. Weasel
    Joined: Dec 30, 2007
    Posts: 6,694

    Weasel
    Member

    Here's the Snow White adapter and water pump.

    [​IMG]
     
  26. JohnieB
    Joined: Jun 15, 2010
    Posts: 3

    JohnieB
    Member
    from Minnestota

    I tried a kit for $230 from a company that shall remain nameless. I don't normally do this, but they looked so bad that I just couldn't put them on my mustang. They charged me a 20% re-stocking fee for returning them.

    Anyway, I finally came across a company called CVF Racing. They were a lot cheaper ($164) and they looked pretty sweet. They also have countersunk holes on the water pump so you don't waste the clearance you just gained with the short pump. Here is a link to their Ford Racing Short Water Pump Pulleys... http://www.cvfracing.com/ford-racing

    Hope this is helpful
     
  27. I'm in the process of putting in a 69 302 in my F100.
    The engine was pulled out of 1969 Ford E100 van.Single groove pulley's and short water pump.I still see them in the pick a parts and usually untouched.The other big plus is that they have a rear sump style oil pan.They work great for those 50's Y block engine swaps.
    My dilemma is that I'm looking for a double groove crank pulley with th 3 bolt pattern so I can hook up my power steering pump.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2010
  28. cvfracing
    Joined: Jul 18, 2009
    Posts: 3

    cvfracing
    Member
    from Minnesota

    Frank - you can use our 3 Bolt Crank Pulley SBFE2CR with our Ford Racing Short water pump pulley SBFS2WP-FR to solve your short water pump / 3 bolt crank dilema.
     
  29. DajerseyRat
    Joined: May 18, 2011
    Posts: 16

    DajerseyRat
    Member
    from NJ Duh....

    OMG what a pain in the ass this is...Im in the process of putting a fuel injected 302 in my 65 pro street Comet and just ran into this issue. I had no idea I would have to change dampers and pumps and go on a majical Harry Potter quest for a set of pulleys...Now wonder my Comet had a Chevy motor in it when I got it..

    I emailed CVF Racing on Ebay waiting on a reply..

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  30. DajerseyRat
    Joined: May 18, 2011
    Posts: 16

    DajerseyRat
    Member
    from NJ Duh....

    OMG what a pain in the *** this is...Why was Ford so stupid with their water pumps, timing covers and dampeners design? There is so much nonsens involved in just getting this right..I need to do the timing chain cover, possibly the damper or a spacer...FML!!! Ford stinks:mad: Now I know why I have always been a Chevy guy...
     

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