SBC Factory Roller Lifter Problems

I originally posted this in the "introduce yourself" by mistake. I hope this is going to the correct forum this time. I have a 1987 305 SBC from a carbed Monte Carlo SS (hopefully going in '38 Olds Coupe). I found out that '87 and up SBC engines will easily accept factory roller cam and lifters. I freshened up the engine (rings-no ridge on cyl, ball honed), rod and main bearings (std-std-crank was perfect), new oil pump (std vol,std press...I ended up with 55-60 cold and 20 warm), new cam bearings I installed (using correct tool and positioning the oil holes the same as the bearings I removed), new block plug kit, and cleaned oil gallery with engine brush kit. I then went to the wrecking yard and purchased all of the roller items from a 1992 Buick Roadmaster (350 Chev engine). I installed the roller stuff (cam, lifters, thrust plate, dogbones, spider) and a new roller type timing chain and gears and a new GM melonized dist gear. I used earlier 305 heads that accept the perimeter type valve covers (new guides and valve job). Fired up engine on test stand. Sounded fine but found water in the oil (running plain water, no antifreeze for the test). Drained the oil, changed filter, resealed all of the studs (removed the Permatex #2 and replaced with Ultra Black silicone,it appears that only one was leaking). Fired up engine again...sounded good, drained oil and changed filter. Fired up engine again...removed valve cover and found that some of the rockers appeared dry. Installed pre-oiler and verified that some of the rockers (farthest away from the pump) were not getting oil. While pre-oiling I noticed "heavy oil flow" in the lifter valley, under the intake (looking through hole in head between a cylinders pushrods). After removing the intake, I dropped in the pre-oiler again (with the intake off...pre-oiler is an old HEI with the teeth ground off) and found that when a lifter is at its peak there is a MASSIVE stream of oil coming up from around the dogbone (seriously, not unlike a garden hose). I actually hit the door of my car 2 1/2 - 3 feet away. I can only come up with a couple of possibilites...lifter body wear, lifter bore wear (or both..I just can't imagine there is that much wear based on the huge amount of oil being sprayed), or lifter coming up too high in the bore and uncovering the oil passage (seems unlikely because this is not a high lift race cam). These are all factory parts although the cam is from a 350 and the engine is a 305. It seems to me that I am losing a lot of oil pressure at the lifters when they are at their peak and there isn't enough pressure left for the pushrods that are farthest from the oil pump. My father inlaw (retired mechanic/old car hobbiest...Model A, '38 Plymouth Coupe, '47 Ford P-up hotrod) is going to take a peek but admits that he is not familiar with this "new" roller stuff. While searching for a solution I found this site and thought this would be the perfect spot for me to get some outside opinions. Due to the (in my opinion) HUGE volume of oil flowing around the lifters, I can't help but think that I am missing something obvious? Thanks for any help, Steve '38 Olds Business coupe, had a tired 350 flat tappet..just changed from TH350 auto to a T5 stick with the S10 tailshaft conversion. Hoping to use the roller 305 for better fuel mileage (soon to be a true daily driver other than winter) and also avoid the lack of zinc in the oil issue.is time. Here is the "copy and paste"...

 

are you sure that your block is desighned to accept the rollers? did thr spider bolt in ir did you have to tap the holes? i beleve the roller blocks have a taller lifter boss to accept the lifter could be the lifter is to high in relation to the height of the lifter boss, i have done tons of theese using factory parts and never had this also make sure the lifter is not slamming into the dog bone. if not i wouldnt rule out sloppy lifter bores, but it sounds really exsesive, if the lifter is coming up too high it will expose the under cut area around the center, causing a massive spray. i would check the lifter bore hieght real carfully as the roller lifters a quite a bit longer. hope this helps

 

Thanks for the reply. The block has the holes drilled and tapped for the thrust plate, the spider bosses are present but they were not drilled or tapped. From what I have read on the 'net, it is simply a matter of drilling the bosses and bolting down the spdier and good to go...hmmm. The lifters are not "loose" in the bores, so I can't see how "that much" oil could blow past them. The only thing that makes sense to me is the lifter being too high at the cams peak and exposing too much of the lifter. I just don't know why that would happen if I am using factory stuff. I am going to go back out and take another look...got kinda frustrated. I can't help but wonder if this block, although it appears to accept roller items, may have some extra machining done to it due to the fact that it is the first year for the new roller style block. Thanks for your input. If/when I sort this out I will post the solution. Has me baffled now though.

 

Sorry...one more thing...the lifter bores on this block are definitely deeper than a std SBC.

 

And one more thing. The three "stumps" or "posts" are cast into the middle of the lifter valley, I just had to drill and tap them to accept the spider.

 

Show us a picture of the block with the intake off >>>>.

 

The stock Gm 350 Roller slifters are TOO LONG for the old Block, you must use V6 Lifters for this applications. The oiling in the new Roller blocks is different for the longer Newer 350 Roller Lifters.

To put the roller stuff in the Old Block you MUST use the shorter v6 Lifters.

 

+1 although you should be able to drill and tap the bosses i think the lifter bores are too short on your early block.... i bet the problem willbe apparent when yo get into it... find some v-6 lifters

 

OK, I just took another look at the engine. The lifter bores are not the same diameter from top to bottom. Not as in wear but machining from the factory. I do not have another "roller" block to compare with but the top of the lifter bore is larger (with the lifter in you have about 1/16" - 1/8" all around the top of the lifter) this larger bore goes for about 1/4" then there is a "countersunk" like step where the lifter bore changes to the normal size to accept a lifter. The lifter itself has the cutaway for the oiling and a ring above the oiling cutaway that is about 1/4" wide that would be contacting the lifter bore. The oiling hole is actually in a small machined off area that is in the 1/4' ring. There is also another machined off area on the other side of the lifter that does not cotain an oiling hole. It seems to me that the "machined off areas on the lifter are rising above the narrow part of the lifter bore and allowing tons of oil to shoot past. The interesting thing is this...I only noticed the "massive" oil flow under the intake when I was using the preoiler with the engine stopped. I am now beginning to think what I am seeing is the factories way of oiling the dogbones and it is unrelated to the lack of oil coming up some of the pushrods. The dogbones get what might end up being a squirt of oil when the engine is running because the lifter is at the top for such a short period of time. What I don't understand is why some of the lifter aren't pushing oil up the pushrod and that might be related to the fact that these were removed from a car at a wrecking yard and I have no idea how long the engine sat without running...the engine did not "tick" when I had it running but a few of the rockers (when running without a valve cover on) were not getting oil. Apparently there is some kind of a little "flapper disc type valve thingy" in a lifter and I am wondering if some of my lifter "thingys" aren't functioning. The only other thought is that the lifter bore and it's two sizes is a manufacturing flaw being that this is a "first year" block design. If the lifter bore was one uniform size I don't think I would be having the "massive" flow problem. I guess my question is this...is the lifter bore one size from top to bottom on a SBC roller engine? Unfortunately I did not pay any attention to the lifter bore that I removed the lifters from. Wow...I feel like I just typed a novel....sorry for the length.

 

This is my first day here...I am going to have to wait for the wife to come home to load some pics for me. One thing I can add is this, when the lifter is on its base circle the top of the lifter sticks up above the dogbone by about 1/8". If I went to a lifter that was shorter than what I have by 1/4" of more the lifter would end up below the dogbone when at base circle. This leads me to believe that I do have the correct lifters and it is a roller block. The big question is should the lifter bore have the two diameters? Thanks again for all the input, I will get to the bottom of this.

 

Just thought of something else. This is a 1987 block. The first year for the one-piece rear seal. The lifter bores are a lot longer on this block than the bores in a '86 and older block. I have some bare, early blocks to compare to.

 

I built a 1990 factory roller cam 305 block with older perimeter bolt heads for my El Camino.This was a car engine.The lifter bosses were factory machined flat on the top to accept the figure 8 retainers.I used a mild Comp Cams roller with stock hydraulic roller lifters.no oiling problems.
I've seen one piece real main seal 87 and up truck 350 blocks with the lifter bosses machined and the 3 bosses in the valley,but the bosses weren't drilled and tapped.These engines had flat tappets though.Truck one piece rear main seal blocks did not have roller lifters like the cars from what I've seen.I do believe the trucks got rollers around 1996 with the Votec heads?

 

Actually I think the one-piece rear seal came out in 1986 but the block that accepts either flat or roller came out in 1987 and this is an '87 block. I do still have the flat tappet cam and lifters from this engine so as a last resort I can just reinstall them (and change the timing chain) I was just hoping to make use of the apparent ability of this engine to accept the roller stuff.

 

Any tips on how to post pics? I can give it a try.

 

This might be a pic

 

Just take the guide bar off and see if the oil hole in the lifter is out of the lifter bore at max lift. Man that's some messed up looking shit you got for motor oil !!! >>>>.

 

Yummy huh...there are some areas under the intake that don't drain well. What you see is oil and water left over after draining and refilling several times including filter. I had a leaky headbolt the first time I fired it up. Send more pics...gotta charge the camera.

 

OK....the pic of the lifter sticking up out of the bore is as high as it gets. The picture of the lifter on its own shows the location of the oiling hole. So the oiling hole is not sticking up above the lifter bore...or so it seems, but it actually is. The lifter bore is larger at the top and then about 1/4" down there is a countersink like machined area and the lifter bore necks down to the standard size. So because the lifter bore is two different diameters the oiling hole really does stick up above the lifter bore. I do not know why the lifter bore has two dimensions. Is it a machining mistake, from the factory on an early roller block, or is it simply a way to allow oil up to the figure 8/dogbone/lifter alinger thingy? I can't help but wonder if this is fine and I simply have a couple of unhappy lifters that just aren't doing the job of flowing that they should.

 

I'll try one more pic to show the neck down of the lifter bore....not sure it will turn out though

 

There should be two pics here. Might be hard to see but I am trying to show the inside of the lifter bore.

 

Yup, you can clearly see that the lifter bore does neck down (about 1/4" in the hole. Can anyone tell me whether or not this is standard for an '87 and newer engine. I removed the engine and disassembled it myself. A lot can happen in the 25 years that car has been around but I would say that the engine is as GM delivered it in '87. If the lifter bore was the same from top to bottom I wouldn't be exposing the oiling hole of the lifter. Still stumped as to why this is happening with stock GM parts (although from different years)

 

How many times does it need to be said. you need the v6 lifters! you cant use the Newer Roller Lifters in the Old Block! i have done this many times.......

the v8 roller lifters WILL NOT WORK IN THE OLD BLOCK. You need the v6 ones!

 

Dakota. The reason I am having a problem with your answer is because this is not what can be referred to as an early block. It has the deep lifter bores (see pics) and it has the spider bosses and it has the machined are behind the timing cover for the factory roller-cam-only thrust plate. Being that this block has the deep lifter bores, how would I be able to keep the V6 lifters aligned if they are shorter?

 

Dakota...when you buy factory replacement roller lifters they fit from 1987 up...my block is an '87.

 

Just did some checking. It appears that the V6 lifter (but not from a 4.3) are 3/8" shorter that the V8 lifters. That would put the top of the lifter either right at or below the factory dog bone/lifter guide when on the base circle. If I were to have to use the V6 lifters then I would also have to machine some of the block where the lifter bores are AND machine the same amount from the spider bosses. Just doesn't make sense to me, why undo what the factory has already done. Dakota, you keep saying older block. Exactly what do you mean by that...look at the pics this is not a regular flat tappet/pre 87 engine.

 

dude you got a fucked up block , plain and simple there should not be a stepped lifter bore. im guessing this was a factory fix for a block that had messed up lifter bores and was designated to flat tappet only. youd be suprised what ive seen as far as factory "repairs" to save parts... you were on the right track but i really dont see any way out of this. its either go bach to what you had or find a different block.

 

I have come to the conclusion that this engine has everything cast into it for the roller cam setup except for the correct lifter bores/oiling ports. The way around this would be to use V6 lifters AND machine away a chunk of the block where the dogbone sits. (basically cut down about 1/4" and remove the part of the lifter bore that is wider than it should be anyway). If I was dealing with a bare block I just might do that, but it's too late for this engine. Solution...reinstall the flat tappet stuff and shelve the roller stuff for another day/block. This block is from the first year of the block change and I'm thinking this might be a really early one that unfortunately can only (easily) accept the flat tappet stuff. Sucks to be me...

Thanks for all the input people

 

Thanks choptop I just finished typing and then saw your answer...I did get a boogered block. No choice but to return to the flat tappet. Thanks again to everyone for your help

 

I remember reading something about those blocks some years back.... I believe someone came out with a press fit bronse bushing kit to repair those lifters bores so the roller lifters an cam can be used.... Not sure who came out with the kit. Ya might want to look into it..... The tops of the lifter bore bosses are machined flat so the tie bars could be used...