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Safety note (kinda rant-y)

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by cosmo, Nov 27, 2009.

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  1. 440roadrunner
    Joined: Mar 30, 2008
    Posts: 55

    440roadrunner
    Member
    from live?

    Removing the floor mat IS NOT THE CURE

    The CURE is that when something like this comes up, you either learn to deal with the problem, or make God Dam sure that you raise hell with the manufacturer to get the problem FIXED so that it CANNOT happen

    I don't know anything about a Lexus, but if you cannot either shut off the engine or put the transmission into neutral, THAT is a massive safety problem
     
  2. so he couldn't jam it back into first and let it bounce off the rev limiter?

    it's crazy unsafe if there's no way to put it in neutral.
     
  3. RichG
    Joined: Dec 8, 2008
    Posts: 3,919

    RichG
    Member

    It's kinda hard to put yourself in someone elses shoes...without being there.

    New cars are being designed to operate some functions autonomously, so the way we dealt with situations in the past may not be possible now. The manufacturers have to walk a fine line between control and safety, less our litigious society bankrupt them for not protecting the least intelligent of our species.

    Personally, I will never own a car that doesn't require a key to be inserted to start it, or a car that has no mechanical link between my actions and the cars reactions. I work as an industrial electrician, operating and repairing electronics all day long, and I can tell you from experience that there is no such thing as a fail-proof electronic device. When you drive these types of cars you are putting your lives in on a roulette wheel, but instead of numbers in the slots there are such things as "magnetic impulse caused transistor to reverse operation" or "electrical short caused motor controller to lose speed impulse input".

    Just some food for thought. I think the officer did good by not causing a massive pileup and taking other vehicles out...and I thank God it wasn't me in that car!
     
  4. mikeco
    Joined: Nov 3, 2008
    Posts: 393

    mikeco
    Member
    from virginia

    Thank you for that info! I've never driven a car that couldn't be shifted into neutral while moving.I wonder if they are all like that or was it just this car. Perhaps the op with the Lexus could shed some light on this.
     
  5. Why do all the machines where I work have emergency kill switches but cars/trucks don't?
     
  6. Special Ed
    Joined: Nov 1, 2007
    Posts: 6,685

    Special Ed
    Member

    Remember, this was a dealer loaner car. I have no idea if the dealer did something to it so the car could not be abused, or what. Rental car companies used to put governors on their fleet....I would imagine the details of this tragedy will continue to come out as the investigation continues.
     
  7. LUX BLUE
    Joined: May 23, 2005
    Posts: 4,407

    LUX BLUE
    Alliance Vendor
    from AUSTIN,TX

    while being respectful of the dead, I have to say there had to be more than one way to slow that car down before 86'ing You and Yours. shift to first, e brake, jam it into park, whatever.

    this is why the new "drive by wire" shit scare the crap outta me. seriosly, they can make one of these things paralell park itself, but no one had the wits to think ahead about "what if the floormat gets jammed between the pedal and the sensor?"
     
  8. Mazooma1
    Joined: Jun 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,598

    Mazooma1
    Member


    How does someone "learn" to deal with the problem? What, do you take your car onto the freeway, put a brick on the accelerator, and then practice on how to safely stop? No car owner would ever expect something like that would ever happen, it never crossed our minds after we bought the car that it could be stuck in that position.
     
  9. RichG
    Joined: Dec 8, 2008
    Posts: 3,919

    RichG
    Member

    Because OSHA (or your local version of it) would run your company out of business if they didn't.

    Machinery operators can take months, even years, to train on a piece of equipment before they are deemed proficient, but a car is turned over to any idiot who can answer twenty questions correctly and show he can parallel park it!

    I hope a Norwegian or Finn pops up in this thread and tells us about their drivers training, that would put things in perspective.
     
  10. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 28,831

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    They still have "off" on the first click up from "lock The column won't go to lock unless the key is in "Park" At least on the cars I have.

    Worse case, throw it into neutral and let the engine over rev until it blows.

    This was a total case of driver panic with the officer's car that ran away from him. The driver had time to call 911 but wasn't thinking about what he could do to control the situation.

    But it does draw attention to the fact that we need to make sure that our rigs don't have stuff that will hang the gas pedals up nor do they have issues under the hood that might cause a similar situation.

    That means that I need to go out and do a bit of fixing on my o/t truck today and take care of a throttle linkage problem that has caused the carb to stick wot a couple of times.

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  11. Special Ed
    Joined: Nov 1, 2007
    Posts: 6,685

    Special Ed
    Member

    Dude, go back and read the rest of the posts regarding this. :mad:
     
  12. rgaller
    Joined: Jun 28, 2009
    Posts: 213

    rgaller
    Member

    1. Automatic transmissions will not allow you to shift into first when you are above a certain speed, to prevent damage to the transmission and loss of control due to significant deceleration.

    2. Pulling the e-brake would surely result in loss of control. As newer cars are front wheel drive and e-brakes are on the rear wheels, it would do nothing but cause the car to spin out and probably flip over. While a stuck accelerator is a scary experience, at least the driver is still in control of the vehicle (minus the accelerator, of course).
     
  13. rgaller
    Joined: Jun 28, 2009
    Posts: 213

    rgaller
    Member

    People didn't read owners manuals back then, either.
     
  14. You can still kill the engine and NOT lock the wheel, just don't turn it to the LOCK position! Too easy. Been there, done that. Gotta be smarter than the equipment!

    I agree with you guys that if a car can NOT be shifted into Neutral or have some sort of mechanism to shut off engine power, THAT is a major problem that needs to be addressed with the largest automotive recall in history!

    And it's not just the auto makers' fault for all this BS. Government regs are a big part of the game why things are what they are. But, ultimately, it is the driver's responsibility, rental or not, to get familiar with the vehicle THEY are in control of!
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2009
  15. lostforawhile
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 4,160

    lostforawhile
    Member

    most of these pushbutton starts can't be shifted into nuetral while the engine is running, more idiot controls that killed someone. why in the crap don't these cars have an emergency stop button in addition to the start? if i owned one i would be putting in a switch in that killed power to the computer.
     
  16. skajaquada
    Joined: Sep 14, 2004
    Posts: 1,642

    skajaquada
    Member
    from SLC Utard

    For the record of all reading; AS LONG AS THE KEY DOESN'T COME OUT OF THE IGNITION, IT WILL NOT LOCK THE COLUMN! There, hope that helps somebody.
     
  17. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 28,831

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER


    The problem and it has been well publicized in the news media is that the floor mats tend to slip in a way that they can hang up the gas pedals.

    Toyota did one recall on it that didn't really fix the problem.

    They should also post instructions for their car owners to "do this, in cast "this" happens. Too many drivers these days do not use what thinking skills that they have when any panic situation comes up.

    With the new fi cars a panic button that cuts the fuel pump and ignition off would kill the engine but leave all other electric an electronic items functioning until the car was stopped. It could also be triggered by the air bag system to help prevent some of the fires that these cars have on a regular basis after a crash.



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  18. lostforawhile
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 4,160

    lostforawhile
    Member

    I've been saying it for years, high end cars like Mercedes already have it, in a wreck, fuel shuts off, the engine stops, hazard flashers come on etc. It's not on the average car because the manufacturers don't want to spend the few dollars it would cost per car.
     
  19. mikeco
    Joined: Nov 3, 2008
    Posts: 393

    mikeco
    Member
    from virginia

    As a car owner, I ALWAYS expect something could happen & what I would do in certain situations & I try and make Damn sure my wife knows what to do! I'm sure if your mats slid forward you just put them back instead of getting rid of them until this happened. I,ve had that happen & the mats went on the spot.

    Your well being depends on YOU no on else. Anticipate everything!
     
  20. 440roadrunner
    Joined: Mar 30, 2008
    Posts: 55

    440roadrunner
    Member
    from live?

    Now you ARE talking like an idiot

    NO and of course you know that's not what I meant. You take it out, early on a Sunday, whatever, find a low use stretch of road, say, 45mph limit, and practice a little shut off the ignition, READ THE BOOK kick it out of gear or fer god sake, even storm into the dealer and ask a few questions.

    "No car owner would expect"

    I have news. I do. I realize fully that my car was assembled by people who don't GAS, by designers and engineers who are pressed by the overpaid, over bonus-ed white shirts, and I EXPECT something to go wrong.

    WTF are you gonna do when you're in the left lane being tailgated by the "morning crew" and something simple happens like

    a flat tire

    a fuel pump relay kills the engine

    A rock kills the front brakes by rupturing a brake line

    A coolant hose blows antifreeze out

    your wipers suddenly quit in the worst rain you've ever seen

    Don't you THINK about this stuff?
     
  21. Mazooma1
    Joined: Jun 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,598

    Mazooma1
    Member


    I doubt that he driver in the situation ever thought about pulling the floor mat back to free up the accelerator pedal. With the car at full acceleration the driver would never think that the mat was the problem. I think that I, too, would think that the problem was more engine related.
    It's real easy to become an "expert" after the fact.
     
  22. Mazooma1
    Joined: Jun 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,598

    Mazooma1
    Member

     
  23. stude_trucks
    Joined: Sep 13, 2007
    Posts: 4,755

    stude_trucks
    Member

    Had the accel. stick on my '53 3/4 ton on the SF Bay Bridge once in full packed bumper to bumper traffic. I instantly just pushed the clutch in, the motor revved up like a mofo and then KA-BANG!!! One hell of a loud bang. I thought fuck, the motor is toast but at least I didn't hit anyone or kill myself and possibly someone else. Then I figured I better figure out how to pull over on the bridge and be one of those assholes whose car breaks down and does that during the middle of rush hour. Just as I was trying to get over, I realized it was still running, just idling along like normal. Wow, one lucky SOB. I guess the high revs caused it to back fire or something and bang the linkage back into line.

    So anyway, I very gently kept driving it the rest of the way across the bridge and home. Just needed to make a very minor adjustment to the linkage to fix it. But was definitely an eye opener I have to say and that bang nearly made me crap my pants, probably others next to me too. But, damn thankful for a clutch that day none the less.

    If I had an auto, I probably would have hit the brakes hard as possible and yanked it in neutral and then tried to kill the ignition. But, don't know the details on that guys case. Does seem odd. Maybe the motor was just too powerful for the brakes to hold it back and he panicked and just couldn't figure it out until too late. Not sure why he could switch it off, but again. I am not about to pass judgement in a situation like that. Sounded like he should have been as capable as any of us to deal with it. Might have just been not resolvable giving the time and circumstances.

    PS, we also have one of the affected Prius'. After 2 years, never have had a single problem with the car at all and looking at the pedal and mat, I can't honestly see how it could ever be a problem. The mat is even clipped to the floor so shouldn't be any way to move. Looks like a decent design to me. Maybe if people don't clip the mats in properly, it could happen. I guess we will still take it in anyway to get it fixed. By the way, they are going to replace the pedals with one that is 3/4" shorter, not use some kind of zip ties fix. The temp fix was to take out the mats.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2009
  24. lostforawhile
    Joined: Mar 23, 2008
    Posts: 4,160

    lostforawhile
    Member

    That was one of the first thing they taught us in drivers ed, way back, what to do in an emergency situation, if the pedal jams try and see if something is jammed under it, if you are able to safely pull it out, if not, shift the car into nuetral, pull off the road and turn off the engine. most modern cars the computer won't allow the engine to over rev and blow up.
     
  25. cowboy1
    Joined: Feb 14, 2008
    Posts: 914

    cowboy1
    Member
    from Austin TX

    It happened to me in my 94 Civic. I just poped into neutral. Then adjusted the floor mat . Poped it back in drive and kept on going.
     
  26. mikeco
    Joined: Nov 3, 2008
    Posts: 393

    mikeco
    Member
    from virginia

    No expert,but it has happend to me in the past & the 1st thing I did was pull the pedal up. I have no idea what the officer was thinking but he was a trained & experienced driver & it still happened.

    Can you shift to neutral in your car or turn it off by holding the ignition button? I'm curious if they all are like the one the officer was driving.
     
  27. impalabuilder
    Joined: Oct 6, 2007
    Posts: 106

    impalabuilder
    Member
    from NJ

    no disrespect meant. It seems a little strange to me, he was the only one up front, everyone else was in the back...etc. I don't think that people shouldn't be able to ask questions just because someone died. I know of a few incidents involving police officers that have made mistakes (gotten caught) where there were coverups after the fact. Not saying this is the case here, just defending my right to ask questions.

    also, you don't know me or any one of my friends. Remember that, this is the Internet, we aren't all who we claim or don't claim to be. I have quite a bit of driving experience.
     
  28. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,200

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    What he said (mazooma). No need for rudeness but there's definately a lack of perhaps, acceptance, expectaion, I can't find the words but I think many would get it. The locking column? Not in gear even on a stick shift. Even my late model Olds with the key in the dash won't lock the column in gear, so I do seem to feel a measure of WTF? on that score. Beyond that it's very hard to find the balance in your concious mind for some. Balance in the form of calm at all times but keenly aware of and able to anticipate actions and problems. Some people are instantly intimidated by certain things. The general population convinced of their ultimate safety and ability to sue wouldn't even consider defensive driving as neccessary these days. I'm old enough to remember Traffic Safety Institue commercials on TV saying "watch out for the other guy" and sometimes how to maintain an escape zone. I didn't even have a license but it stuck. You can't give that someone. It's developed. I had some bad Chevy motor mounts when I was 17-18. Being a kid I went WFO at a stop sign and it was stuck but I didn't know it until I was ready to let off...at 50MPH! I don't know what made me do it, maybe because I could tune a car before I could drive, but I instantly pushed it into neutral to unload the motor and get the key off. I pulled over and popped the hood, re-started and brake torqued it looking under the hood from behind and bigger than shit, broken mount.

    In the winter of 08 I was hauling $300K worth of car back from FLA when a truck just decided to move into my lane while I was RIGHT NEXT TO THE DRIVER"S DOOR!! The guy was a complete fuckin idiot doing that in the conditions alone but here I was ABLE TO SEE HIS FACE! I had no choice but to slowly and completely work toward the LEFT shoulder keeping my rig as straight and smooth as humanly possible and never lifted the throttle. Smooth fluid calm reaction. How can you just tell someone to do that? You can't. Trust and self-preservation kicked in. Would've surely been deadly otherwise. Panic is a horrible feeling. It's hard for the average person to avoid and I'm more concerned with the lack of ability around me at any given time. It's a sad thing that lives were lost in the subject of this post and sadder still that it happens almost daily.

    Practice is a good idea by the way. I'd go out to closed shopping centers and learn my car's limits, especially when there's a substantial amount of snow down. OK you busted me...it's fuckin fun too.
     
  29. Special Ed
    Joined: Nov 1, 2007
    Posts: 6,685

    Special Ed
    Member

    He was not the only one up front. Four people were in that car total. Yes, you are correct, I do not know you. I made a generalization because the CHP officer in question was a veteran on the force, and these guys can put 500 miles a day in their cars. We cannot learn without asking questions....ask away. But please do not be judgemental without first having ALL the facts.
     
  30. captain scarlet
    Joined: Jun 11, 2008
    Posts: 2,417

    captain scarlet
    Member
    from Detroit


    Who do you think makes Lexus then:confused:

    The government sharply criticized Toyota Motor Corp. Wednesday for issuing what the agency called an &#8220;inaccurate and misleading&#8221; statement about its planned recall of 3.8 million vehicles linked to sudden, unintended acceleration that may be due to more than improperly fitting floor mats, The Detroit News said.
    The National Highway Transportation Safety Administration&#8217;s criticism of Toyota&#8217;s statement is the latest hit to the automaker&#8217;s reputation from what will be the largest safety recall in its history, the paper said. NHTSA said Toyota inaccurately suggested in a press release this week that the agency had concluded &#8220;that no defect exists in vehicles in which the driver&#8217;s floor mat is compatible with the vehicle and properly secured,&#8221; the agency said in a statement, the News said.
    Toyota spokesman Brian Lyons said the company hadn&#8217;t meant to mislead anyone, the paper said. &#8220;It was never our intention to mislead or provide inaccurate information. Toyota agrees with NHTSA&#8217;s position that the removal of the floor mats is an interim measure and that further vehicle-based action is required,&#8221; Lyons said in the story. &#8220;We are in the process of developing vehicle-based remedies to help avoid the potential for an unsecured or incompatible floor mat to trap the accelerator pedal.&#8221; (The Detroit News)

    Toyota will reconfigure the gas pedal and, in some cases, reshape the floor surface under the pedal, to prevent unsecured mats from sliding and interfering with the gas pedal, the agency and automaker said, the paper reported. Toyota said dealers initially will shave about three-quarters of an inch from accelerator pedals. Replacement pedals will become available starting in April, but the replacements will be identical to the dealer-shortened pedals, the story said. (The Detroit News
     
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