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Technical Runs but timing at 30 advanced - solved

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 5brown1, Nov 21, 2018.

  1. 5brown1
    Joined: Apr 13, 2008
    Posts: 196

    5brown1
    Member

    I am at my wits end with this issue. I have a 57 Studebaker with the 289 which was over hauled by the PO approximately 3000 miles ago and a mild cam R1 was installed. I put very few of those miles on it.
    The new torque converter was bad and as it was new I looked for engine issues first. It could not be driven until I had the TQ rebuilt again. Now, and probably before, the engine will not run when timing is set to the factory spec.
    It runs best when advanced about 30 degrees. I have used a piston stop to locate TDC and it is right on at the damper timing mark, the compression averages 150, I do not have vacuum leaks, the carburetor has been overhauled and adjusted correctly, it has a new pertronix distributor, coil and wires, I have used a dial back and old timing lights both with the same results.
    With the timing pointer at the damper at factory spec of 4 degrees advance for it to run well the #1 distributor wire terminal is about 1/2" before the rotor position where it should be. I have a picture but it is apparently too big to post here.
    I am thinking that the valves must be in the correct position when the engine runs the best and somehow the camshaft is out of sync. I do know the timing dots on the gears are where they should be as I did replace the cam gear thinking that would solve the issue when the TQ was bad.
    I've found other threads on this but never any answers? Any ideas you may save my sanity.
    . And Thanks,
     
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  2. Paul
    Joined: Aug 29, 2002
    Posts: 14,807

    Paul
    Editor

    dumb question, is that with the vacuum line disconnected and blocked off and at idle?
     
    INVISIBLEKID and chryslerfan55 like this.
  3. Ebbsspeed
    Joined: Nov 11, 2005
    Posts: 5,034

    Ebbsspeed
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You're not using a dial-back timing light, are you?
     
    Elcohaulic likes this.
  4. sevenhills1952
    Joined: Mar 14, 2018
    Posts: 927

    sevenhills1952

    All bets are off since "over hauled by the PO approximately 3000 miles ago and a mild cam R1 was installed"., imho.
    You would have to pull timing cover and use a degree wheel to see how cam was installed. The assembler may have used an offset key to adv/retard cam. Who knows since you didn't assemble it, install cam, distributor, etc.

    Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk
     
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  5. 5brown1
    Joined: Apr 13, 2008
    Posts: 196

    5brown1
    Member

    Idling with vacuum disconnected, both types of timing lights tried as mentioned above.
     
  6. Petejoe
    Joined: Nov 27, 2002
    Posts: 10,466

    Petejoe
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Zoar, Ohio

    Try an old trick.
    Hook up a vacuum gauge at a vacuum line when idling. Increase or decrease advance until you find the maximum vac reading.
    Then decrease advance a few pounds. Lock it there.
     
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  7. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,247

    oj
    Member

    In situations where you don't know if the can was installed correct I use the 'Zero Degree Overlap' as far as I know all engine can be checked by this method. With the valve cover off so you can see #1, rotate the engine (easy with plugs out) until you are at the end of the exhaust stroke, as the exhaust valve is closing and the intake is opening when they are precisely aligned - both valves will be opened the exact same amount then that will be what the cam thinks isTDC and check the timing pointer, if the TDC mark on the balancer is not on TDC you know the cam is advanced or retarded in relation to the crankshaft.
    That is the only way I know of to test if the cam is installed right without pulling the front apart and using a degree wheel. Its a quick and easy test.
     
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  8. DesertRat#1
    Joined: Nov 12, 2018
    Posts: 57

    DesertRat#1
    Member

    You don't mention carburation or PCV. A vacuum gauge would be helpful as well. Needing that much initial in not good if it is true initial. My mild build in the brand M runs 150# compression and likes 15 degrees initial with total clamped at about 35 degrees. I did find an error in my PCV circuit which was causing me some pain. Once I fixed that and got the right carburation the motor calmed down. It now runs at hot idle at about 14" vacuum with the 15 degrees initial and I degreed my cam in to 4 degrees advance which is what the MFG recommended.
     
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  9. 5brown1
    Joined: Apr 13, 2008
    Posts: 196

    5brown1
    Member

    The vacuum is at around 15 (late ignition timing range) There is no PCV system on these cars. The stock carburetor is good. This is a super charged car but that is not on the car due to the issues. I also need to mention this is a gear to gear crank to camshaft setup - no chain. The damper is solid and can only be mounted one way so no slipping there.
    oj - I will try that -
     
  10. Fordors
    Joined: Sep 22, 2016
    Posts: 2,753

    Fordors
    Member

    That check is only valid if the cam timing is the same, say 36-72 72-36, and also if the cam was installed straight up. A lot of modern cams are dual pattern and the numbers will be different for intake/exhaust.
     
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  11. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,247

    oj
    Member

    Thanks Fordors, I have always wondered about that. I knew there had to be exceptions to the rule.
     
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  12. mtkawboy
    Joined: Feb 12, 2007
    Posts: 1,213

    mtkawboy
    Member

    Do what petejoe said or pull the timing cover off & see whats going on. Im guessing its at least a tooth or more off the mark
     
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  13. sevenhills1952
    Joined: Mar 14, 2018
    Posts: 927

    sevenhills1952

    Also do you know what cam it is? That way you can contact manufacturer about their recommended setting.
    Our experience you'll never want to use factory recommended settings unless motor is 100% factory original. That includes everything , and everything (cam, valve lash, carb., distributor) exactly as factory.

    Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk
     
  14. 5brown1
    Joined: Apr 13, 2008
    Posts: 196

    5brown1
    Member

    I'm afraid of just setting it using vacuum as I don't know what effect the supercharger will have on it if the timing is so far off.
     
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  15. Jack E/NJ
    Joined: Mar 5, 2011
    Posts: 585

    Jack E/NJ
    Member
    from NJ

    >>>It runs best when advanced about 30 degrees. >>>

    But does it seem to run good at this spot? Jack E/NJ
     
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  16. Any change the spark plug wires are hooked up wrong?
    Charlie Stephens
     
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  17. 5brown1
    Joined: Apr 13, 2008
    Posts: 196

    5brown1
    Member

    oj - I just completed the test and it indicates that the cam is at least 9 degrees advanced. Anyway that is what the
    timing pointer is indicating. I'm not camshaft knowledgeable so what does that mean? I'm almost afraid to ask.

    Answering others: Plug wires are correct - sounds good at 1500+ RPM but not good below that
     
  18. oldtom69
    Joined: Dec 6, 2009
    Posts: 479

    oldtom69
    Member
    from grandin nd

    cam gear fiber or steel?had center turn in a fiber gear before-took a long time to figure it out since timing marks on the gears were still right on
     
  19. sevenhills1952
    Joined: Mar 14, 2018
    Posts: 927

    sevenhills1952

    9 degrees advanced using a degree wheel?

    Sent from my SM-S320VL using Tapatalk
     
  20. 5brown1
    Joined: Apr 13, 2008
    Posts: 196

    5brown1
    Member

    It is an aluminum cam gear and steel crank.
    I did the test that oj described checking the intake and exhaust valves.

    Also: thanks to all for helping out - Hope you all have a great Thanksgiving. I know I will as the wife is making
    pies tonight - and she is good at it.
     
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  21. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 4,148

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    Has the damper slipped, throwing the timing marks off?
     
  22. 5brown1
    Joined: Apr 13, 2008
    Posts: 196

    5brown1
    Member

    No , see post #9
     
  23. BamaMav
    Joined: Jun 19, 2011
    Posts: 4,148

    BamaMav
    Member
    from Berry, AL

    OOPS, missed that....
     
  24. Did you check to see if the mechanical advance is stuck or hanging up?
    We always got the best results at the track with 36-38 advance.
    That also worked well on the street.
    After that, we just made sure the advance weights backed the timing way down at low revs.
    The factory initial timing seemed much too retarded to us. We bumped it way forward and timed it by ear.
    Long ago there was a guy named Bob Dwyer who held an AHRA record with his Paxton blown Stude Lark in the 1970s who said using the factory timing numbers cost him 100 hp, so he ran a lot more advance than the books said.
    I dono if this helps or not.
    I would suggest checking the mechanical advance to make sure it advances at speed, then drops back at lower revs.
    If it sticks, it can give you crazy results.

    WHY BE ORDINARY ?
     
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  25. gene-koning
    Joined: Oct 28, 2016
    Posts: 1,817

    gene-koning
    Member

    Is there a mechanical advance in the dist? What rpm does it come in? I was taught to time the motor at 2500 rpm with all the advances connected. Full advance should be in at 2500. You set the timing for a total advance in the 32-36 degree range, and the initial timing will be where ever it ends up. Then as long as the motor doesn't kick against the starter at start up, it fires quickly, and doesn't ping, all is good.

    A 9 degree advance on the cam timing sounds kind of fishy to me. I suspect the cam has different lobe centers for intake and exhaust. If it doesn't, I would be pulling it apart to see what is going on. Gene
     
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  26. Jack E/NJ
    Joined: Mar 5, 2011
    Posts: 585

    Jack E/NJ
    Member
    from NJ

    5bl>>> sounds good at 1500+ RPM but not good below that>>>
    dtbd>>>Did you check to see if the mechanical advance is stuck or hanging up?>>>

    This. Jack E/NJ
     
  27. spanners
    Joined: Feb 24, 2009
    Posts: 905

    spanners
    Member

    Sounds good at 1500+RPM but not good below that- possibly a large overlap cam. No grunt under 1500.
     
  28. dan griffin
    Joined: Dec 25, 2009
    Posts: 468

    dan griffin
    Member

    Rotate the gear on the bottom of the distributor 180 degrees and see if the rotor lines up with the #1 prod in the cap.
     
  29. 5brown1
    Joined: Apr 13, 2008
    Posts: 196

    5brown1
    Member

    The mechanical advance is working. It is at 30 when idling and will advance as the RPMs rise and drops back as it should.
     
  30. jaw22w
    Joined: Mar 2, 2013
    Posts: 1,013

    jaw22w
    Member
    from Indiana

    Are you sure you did the TDC test with the stop correctly? Rotate one direction. Mark balancer. Rotate the other direction. Mark balancer. TDC is right in the middle.
    Not meaning to doubt your abilities, but I have seen this messed up before.
     
    Baron likes this.

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