It’s my understanding that the aftermarket lifter makers have been plagued with quality control problems regardless of what engine they go in.
Off the top of my head, not sure I'm remembering quite correct, but; Yes, but from what I've read, cams are being made w/at least 2 different materials. Which is absolutely not the stuff they used from at least the late 50's ->mid 60's. From memory, I want to say Profenall(sp?) a type of cast iron used by all the cam-blank makers. Was perfect for the job, w/"hardenable chilled" lifters. Marcus...
Hey Dan, did you pick a cam and set of lifters yet? I have been going through the same carp as you. Been a month and I still haven’t found the right isky/Johnson lifter yet. It’s going to be kept under 6k and will be a street car engine. I went back and forth on going flat tappet or roller, would make up my mind on using the flat tappet I bought then someone would say they just wiped a cam lobe out. Then researched a ton on roller stuff. Some said they broke a comp roller cam in half and comps lifters collapse, seen that with Edelbrock too. Howard’s lifters which are morels are said to be super noisy but not sure which number since they have about 6 different ones. I’m just wanting a isky/Johnson hydraulic retrofit roller lifter and all I see are short travel or reduced travel. Then there is which cam button to use, or do I go with the cloyes cam adjustment built in timing chain cover and will it fit under a short water pump. I did pick the cam it’s a Howard’s with 480 lift and can use stock dist gear and fuel pump rod. Also you will have to get a pushrod length checker and don’t forget roller rockers which ones? I think I’m going with Harlan sharps. Have comp roller tip rockers but not sure they would work anyway. Yeah it’s gonna be a 2k investment or I can risk smoking my engine and costing more than that and then going roller. I’m about to pull my hair out on all the decisions that need to be made. I have to get it right the first time, don’t have the money to swap lifters when the $700 are too noisy to take anymore.
I finally got some Christmas money and tried to just buy a set of Johnson lifters but I couldn’t find them anywhere online for a gen 1 SBC. LS lifters are plentiful. I tried emailing Johnson and they never responded. So, I did buy a cam kit and I did buy retrofit hydraulic rollers from Comp Cams. They are out of stock so it might be a while before I get them. Xtreme Energy 218/224 Hydraulic Roller Cam SK-Kit for Chevrolet Small Block. SKU: SK12-422-8 It was spendy but I’m convinced a new flat tappet and lifters was too much of a gamble. I might not get it for a while and it might be even longer before it’s installed but I’ll report back sometime in the next year.
I was talking with the local performance engine builder recently and he will no longer do any engines with a flat tappet cam, rollers only.
Funny, flat tappet cams and lifters (and the oil for them) were pretty well perfected about a hundred years ago, but we somehow lost the technology
Didn't lose it, it just went obsolete. The OEMs pretty much abandoned flat tappets 25+ years ago and as is usually the case, once demand drops precipitously the big makers move on and second-tier manufacturers try to pick up the slack.
The participants who think a $ 12-1500 cam & kit are cheap insurance are the same sort who will pay $50 for a 3 year warranty on a $15 toaster !
I'm just about to start another flat tappet motor. I received the cam and lifters from Crower at Xmas. I'm using a SD1 Rover alloy block (previously 215 Olds) P76 Leyland crank, CP pistons and rods. This is a full race motor with a full main girdle. 215 (3.5ltr) out to 265 (4.45) I've done several of these since the 1980's and always used Crower cams and lifters, never had a problem. One motor I've freshened maybe 4 times and is still being raced in historics'. Very similar to the motor's Traco built from the first McLaren Canam cars. I always use high zinc oils.
A few years ago, I purchased a Summit cam and lifter kit, I ditched the lifters and used Delphi lifters and running in oil after reading a similar thread - worked fine. Now Im about to fire up a fresh engine, Comp cam and another set of Delphi lifters, will let you guys know the result in a few days, fingers crossed. Glen
Forgot to mention in my last post, there were Johnson lifters available for the SBC but they were all short (reduced) travel which I do not need for my street car. Reduced travel is almost a solid lifter where pushrod length and lash become critical. Don’t need that headache in a Blvd. cruiser.
I just did the same with a Mellings MTC-1 cam, NOS Delphi's and Zinc fortified break in oil...no problems
I’ve never had a cam go flat but of the last three I project’s of mine I used new old stock for the cam and lifter’s on one, new old stock for the lifter’s and a new nitrated cam on the second one And on the third, I used new Comp Cam cam and lifters, all were solid flat tappets and had .560 to .600 lift. Brad Penn break in oil was used and all three were broken in on the dyno with out issue. Over the three years I was around my buddies shop working on my engines when I could I didn’t see or here of any flat tappet cams going bad on the dyno or out the door. But what I did see was few roller cams go bad namely the lifter’s. The legs spreading rollers coming out, rollers just failing and tearing up the cam. Hydraulic roller lifters seem like something the aftermarket just can’t get right for a non roller block. So I’m going to stay with my solid flat tappet cams for now maybe someday I’ll take the plunge but I doubt it.
I've only used one roller cam and lifters, and it was in my current car I finished 2 years ago. I had read so many things about flat tappet cam failures in recent years that I was scared to even buy another flat tappet cam for my 355 SBC engine. Plus the 4 bolt main block was a 1990, so setup for a roller lifter already! I called almost every cam maker around to get help deciding which cam would be best for my engine build, and driving plans and most just shut me down referring me to their web site to use it to plan my camshaft choice. I finally called Howards Camshafts and got a tech to not just talk to me, but spent over 20 minutes on the phone answering my questions. When we finished he asked for my email address and said he was sending me two camshaft details for me to choose between. I got the catalog numbers and links in a few minutes, and chose the hydraulic roller camshaft I felt would be best for my build and ordered it from Howards. The camshaft/lifters have worked great, and even when I did an oil change and began to hear a little lifter noise I called Howards and the tech set me straight in seconds. Turned out without much roller cam experience I'd gone to heavy on my oil viscosity, and he immediately told me to change to 10-30wt or even 5-30wt and it would be fine. I changed my oil and all was good again. If I ever do another roller cam Howards will be my first choice, as the customer service and quality is top notch.
I am a roller lifter guy. Hadn't built an SBC with flat tappet lifters since the 80's. This past summer I built a 1962 327 for my buddy's '37 Chevy coupe. My buddy doesn't know a lot about engines. He wanted to use a flat tappet comp cam and lifters that he had picked out. I knew it was way too big for that little 327 in a street car that he drives a lot. I tried to talk him into a roller cam, but he wasn't having any of it. I told him we should call a custom cam designer and get his recommendation. I filled out the cam recommendation form online at Jones Cam Designs (extensive, detailed, information) and gave Mike Jones a call. Ended up buying cam and lifters from him. I think it cost $70 more than buying the comp cam he had picked out. I thought it was well worth that for a cam that is tailored to our specific engine combination. I figured he would sell a lifter that he had had success with. Don't know what brand they were! I hated putting that flat tappet cam in that motor. Scared me to death from hearing all the bad stuff happening. So, I was super anal when installing the cam and lifters. First thing I did to the bare block was to install the cam bearings, then the cam. Each lifter was checked for smooth rotation in the bore as it was installed. then installed the cam gear and slowly hand rotated it while watching each lifter for rotation. Nothing rotated! Scared the hell out of me! After the panic subsided, I figured they need some pressure on them to rotate. I applied light finger pressure to each lifter as I turned the cam and, yep, every one of them rotated. I learned something while doing this. I always figured the rotation was a constant thing, but I could actually feel the cam kick the lifter around right about full lift. At least with that cam anyway. My attention to detail apparently paid off. The motor is running great. He says it will knock the tires off in the first 3 gears of the 700r4. It's basically a L79 clone with just a tad less compression for today's fuel. Oh! One more thing. I used a cam button to control cam thrust. It's a nice cheap little piece of insurance, keeps that lifter working in a small range.
The taper of the lobes mating with the crown of the lifter pull the cam back toward the block, controlling "walk" with a flat tappet cam.
You are correct. But I suspect that at the transition between accel and decel there may be some cam walk going on. Comp cams says .004" to .010" is the range for endplay. Why not control that range down to .005" or so? I put in so many cam buttons with roller cams, it was just natural to install a button with the FT cam. They're cheap. There is also the consideration that any forward movement of the cam retards the timing. I think that button helps maintain a consistent spark, too.
I just always used a cam button on every build I did. Not sure it was needed, but I know it sure didn't hurt and didn't cost much.
Same here, solid aluminum or nylon button every build without a retainer plate. Can't hurt, low cost protection, more stable ignition timing. This is what you are looking for.....Gaterman lifters. Here's just one source that I know of. Gaterman GP1001 SBC Retrofit....also fits 348 | Powell Machine Inc He's got a solid YouTube channel as well, very straight-up.
I don't see why accel or decel would affect the loads and subsequent direction of thrust on the cam, BUT I do agree with you on using a button anyway. It sure can't hurt and may well help when the cam tries to move forward for any reason. Not a bad plan at all.
Roller conversions are sketchy at best. Too many moving parts to fail, too much modification required. You will need the correct lifters for the block you have when running a roller cam and a retro fit cam button timing cover. You will also need shorter push rods and the rocker geometry needs to be spot on for it to live. If you plan on running a double-roller timing gear set, the front of the block may need to be clearanced around the top of the cam journal boss. Everyone is freaked out about hydraulic flat tappet lifters not breaking in the camshaft properly - this phenomenon is being blow WAY out of proportion. Get a Comp Cam with lifters and use their break-in oil and you wont have any problems as long as you dont have any debris in the oiling system. I just got my 327 running and used the 327/350 nostalgia plus version...in a 32 roadster (327, 462 heads, flat top pistons) it is scary responsive to throttle and very snappy - sounds great too.
A lot of guys are saying this because they can't get good older core blocks, especially high nickel...reality is, the best stuff left are all roller engines anyhow.
I started my new engine today, so far approximately 1 hour of running and a 15 mile drive without issues. Glen
I watched this video a few weeks ago, so might be helpful to someone else, too: Two others: I found this article to be very informative, too, and shows why lifters are not actually flat: https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/check-flat-tappet-lifter-crown-lobe-taper-lifter-bores/amp/
Please explain the "too much modification" part? As far as I know a retrofit roller cam set comes with links to keep the lifters aligned as pairs? So that's the only extra working part. And no modifications I know of to make them work? Yes, you do need different length pushrods, but if you're building an engine I always replace the pushrods anyway, so they're not more expensive pushrods, just different. The big thing has always been the cost of the retrofit lifter sets, and that's a real biggy to the price of a cam swap to roller cams with retrofit lifters.
a retro fit cam button timing cover shorter push rods rocker geometry is a big issue - SBC stamped rockers and/or retrofit rollers were never designed to work with the profile of a roller cam and the geometry gets whacky with retro-fitting front of the block clearanced around the top of the cam journal boss to use a double roller timing chain. I hear all the horror stories of failure - anyone had a recent failure using a comp cam, CC lifters, CC break-in oil and a clean oil system? I always use Lucas' high zinc assembly lube as a precaution. Used this combo with dozens of new and used SBC's - never had a cam flatten out, NEVER.
The lifter should rotate around 360 degrees with every rotation of the crank - this keeps them from wearing grooves in the face. You can put a mark on the lifter and watch it rotate during assembly.
The Jalopy Journal
