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Hot Rods Roll bar for TROG

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Vonn Ditch, Mar 22, 2019.

  1. denis4x4
    Joined: Apr 23, 2005
    Posts: 3,487

    denis4x4
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Colorado

    I developed a line of SCCA approved bolt in roll bars for Autopower. Granted, these were designed for sports cars, not hot rods. Quite frankly, poorly designed roll bars are worse then no roll bars. I designed a roll bar for my Zipper (avatar) and after it was built, removed it as it probably would have have hurt me more than it would have saved me. TROG rules will require purpose built cars.....nothing wrong with that:
     
  2. How about building the bar Grasshopper style.
    Modern oval track cars mount the seat to the cage.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
  3. Speedtwin
    Joined: Feb 6, 2011
    Posts: 67

    Speedtwin
    Member

    I have run my 1928 steel v8 A Roadster at Pendine for the last three years. From this year the VHRA have announced that a roll bar/cage needs to be fitted. It’s a tough one to call for sure. The whole event has always had that nostalgic feeling that we all live for but the thought of period hot rods suddenly ‘sprouting’ safety cages may kinda ruin the whole feel/look of the event from now on. I guess, like TROG all good things ‘get away with it until the inevitable happens’ and it comes to an abrupt end.
    Last year in Wales under the hot sun the sand felt very strange to run on and very loose under power and at high speed. At least two v8 cars spun out at the top end one near enough going through the speed timing traps backwards. As the beach was so unpredictable the officials called an end to the races early - it was the correct and a sensible move to make.
    So I guess it all comes down to what do you want to see: a slow moving car show or a flat out beach race, if it’s the latter, well it’s simple - safety has to come first (and full face helmets and cages will spoil all the photos you take!)
    For the record I ran 106 mph on the sands in a open Roadster.
    I would be interested to know what the top speeds at the TROG races have been to cause these rule changes?


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  4. Speedtwin
    Joined: Feb 6, 2011
    Posts: 67

    Speedtwin
    Member

    [​IMG]



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  5. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 4,675

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Then it's no longer vintage racing, might as well drop the whole thing and go racing for real.

    IMO a non-affiliated renegade event is starting to look good again. Meet at El Mirage, run what ya brung. No promoters, no advertisers, no officials. Match races, no timing slips, no points, no money, no trophys. I suspect that's pretty much how it started to begin with.
     
  6. Marcosmadness
    Joined: Dec 19, 2010
    Posts: 352

    Marcosmadness
    Member
    from California

    There is an "old saying" in racing about fire suits that you don't dress for the race, you dress for the crash. The same could be said about roll bars. Racing is all "fun and games" until someone get seriously hurt. A properly built roll bar/cage makes a lot of the cars look "dumb". But what is really dumb is having your best friend tell your wife how you died "doing what you loved".
     
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  7. klawockvet
    Joined: May 1, 2012
    Posts: 375

    klawockvet
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Those of us who drove hot rods and raced in the old days lived like there was no tomorrow and we survived. Now that some of us have passed our "best if used by date" the nanny state doesn't want us to take any chances. I say the hell with it. My cars are period safe and I drive like I want and am willing to take a chance of dying if that's the price I have to pay to enjoy life. If I die doing what I love to do its a hell of a lot better than dying a lingering death in an old age home.
     
  8. Tin Lizzie
    Joined: Oct 19, 2010
    Posts: 1,567

    Tin Lizzie
    Member
    from Ohio

    Killer Roadster !!! What is the course length at Pendine ? That's a very impressive speed.
     
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  9. Tin Lizzie
    Joined: Oct 19, 2010
    Posts: 1,567

    Tin Lizzie
    Member
    from Ohio

    I assume the rollbars are required just for the open cars ?
     
  10. I have been talking safety but I don't think this cars need full modern cages or full face helmets.
    Well build roll bars (above the hight of the drivers head)
    Seat belts shoulder harness would (WW II Aircraft ued the) be a good Idea as would a Firesuit.
    As for ruining photos put a motorcycle jacket on over the firesuit.
    Bell still makes the 500 helmet (DOT) that came out in th 1950's they also make the shields
    upload_2019-3-27_17-15-18.png upload_2019-3-27_17-16-57.png upload_2019-3-27_17-31-16.png upload_2019-3-27_17-37-6.png upload_2019-3-27_17-38-46.png
     
  11. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 4,675

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    Many of the examples shown in this thread would be terrible. Unless the diagonal braces extend to the top bar, if the car rolls at speed the bar is going to dig into the sand and bend like a wet noodle. Or the bar may start cutting into the sand shoving it into the driver's face, burying him. I think a full cage is pretty much going to be a necessity, something like used on a sand rail. Once you start down this path you really need to go all the way, part way is as bad or worse than none at all.
     
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  12. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 4,675

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    No, I don't want to argue, sorry for coming off that way.

    I realize the diagonal braces keep the bar from folding, but if they don't extend to the top of the bar, if they attach part way up, the part of the bar above them will fold.

    We're not talking about a heavy wet track, we're talking about sand. And the photo you posted shows a full cage, not a roll bar. Do you have experience on the sand?

    The point is, if you're going to go down this path, you probably need to put a cage in it, not just a bar, and not an unbraced bar. Again, look at the cages used on sand rails, that's a far cry from some of what's been posted here, and I don't see how that's gonna work for a vintage racing type event.
     
  13. Kiwi 4d
    Joined: Sep 16, 2006
    Posts: 2,718

    Kiwi 4d
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    89F93875-FD92-4272-9038-B967487C45D1.jpeg 251FEC9C-A368-43B0-8F95-C3B3A71E5608.jpeg 51DF087D-BBC1-4B3D-A9B7-F1031F4EC0A1.jpeg Taken from the TROG site, as were the above pictures.

    “A VINTAGE STYLE ROUND OR SQUARE ROLL BAR IS NEEDED. NO CAGES, JUST LIKE THE ORIGINALS. EMAIL US IF YOU HAVE QUESTIONS!”

    I think guys are getting hung up on the roll bar deal , Its their event and racers need to abide by “their “ rules. Sure there are many different style of better roll bars . We can offer suggestions only, we can not make the Oilers rules.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2019
  14. Speedtwin
    Joined: Feb 6, 2011
    Posts: 67

    Speedtwin
    Member

    Thank you
    The course on the sands at Pendine is 1/2 mile run up into a flying 1/8 timing trap and approx 1/4 mile shut down.
    I believe the beach in Wales is 7 miles long and that’s why in the 1920-30s many land speed records were set there.
    It’s are own El Mirage, Muroc and Bonneville all rolled into one


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  15. jimgoetz
    Joined: Sep 6, 2013
    Posts: 380

    jimgoetz
    Member

    Well unless things have changed a lot TROG is 1/8 mile standing start in pretty soft sand. I doubt if the trap speeds are very high.
     
  16. hardtimesainit
    Joined: Jan 24, 2009
    Posts: 329

    hardtimesainit
    Member

    I’m confused Has any rod/car ever flipped over at any of these races ?
    I watched that guy stick his bike/head in the sand. It should be obvious to anyone who has ever ridden a motorcycle, that getting sideways and going down IS inevitable....on sand and/or wet soft surfaces...especially when racing antiques !
    I listened to the organizer of this race tell how he had told the guy, who dumped the bike, to not continue to go all out like he was doing at every opportunity.
    Only takes one to ruin something for all, it has been said. Since it was a bike rider whose flip started this roll bar, etc safety issue, are bikes still going to be allow to race ? And if so, how will roll bar rules affect them ?
    An observation:
    These rods, for the most part, are antique works of art. Does anyone really think that an amature roll bar will suffice for safety on sand ? No 5 point harness requirement ? Same for seat anchoring ?? Safety “bandaid” or beginning of the end for a great American pastime ?
     
  17. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,108

    The37Kid
    Member

    Just an observation from following all the TROG events & builds here on the HAMB. This started out as a fun event, build a car from "Left Overs" and run it down the sand. Did anyone spend money building a "Race Motor"? I always looked it as a "Reenactment" not an out & out race. This was a dream Mel had, very few people have the ability to turn dreams into reality, and provide a good time for everyone.

    Bob
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2019
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  18. 51 mercules
    Joined: Nov 29, 2008
    Posts: 2,985

    51 mercules
    Member

    Seemed like at Santa Barbara it was more of an out in out race. SBC's, T5's,, alternators , late model overhead valve motors after 1953, which was not allowed as stated on their website. Some of the cars probably could of used a roll bar. I had a friend who built his car following all the rules on there website and could not compete. Don't get me wrong! It was still a fun event. But they should not have had a certain criteria on their website. Then you get there it's different. Some people built their cars following that criteria. Like I said I still had fun.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2019
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  19. louisb
    Joined: Oct 13, 2008
    Posts: 982

    louisb
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I looked at is a sort of run what you brung fun event more than competition. Face it, none of us are going very fast with a flathead. (But hot rodders will always try to go faster )

    I am honestly having a hard time with the role bar requirement. One of the goals of building my car was to run in vintage events like TROG and the hill climb but 90% of the time it will be a street car. I really don’t want to add a roll bar to the car so I am probably out for the NJ event. (Not sure I will have the car ready anyway.)

    Having said that I respect the Oiler’s decision and may make a purpose built car for a future event. Especially if they ever decide to run at Daytona.

    Thanks,

    —louis
     
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  20. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 26,912

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    From being around the guys at Trog at Pismo beach "reenactment was the furthest thing from their minds. This isn't a bunch of guys out in a park pretending to be 40's hot rodders outside of having the cars look authentic and having period correct clothes for many and that quite often meant white coveralls. A lot of the engines were full on race motors with serious money in them. Figure 5000 buck engine in a 200 dollar car and you pretty well nailed a lot of them. Not that there weren't some thrown together jalopies with very basic engines there too but the cars got matched up against pretty equal cars so there was no one getting their doors blown off because of who they lined up against.
     
  21. Steeb
    Joined: Dec 28, 2016
    Posts: 9

    Steeb
    Member
    from New Jersey

    Got an email from Corey the other day about it. I'm not gonna overthink it. I pray the sand is better this October because the sand was absolutely terrible last year. No traction and it was a washboard the whole way. Fingers crossed.
     
  22. I grew up doing an endurance run where all the cars and everything on the cars was supposed to be pre '28 with no factory bodies with the exception of radiator, cowl, hood. The roughly 200 mile course would often cover dirt paths, creeks, and generous inclines and declines. I can recall there being close to 100 cars a couple years but as they got more particular about enforcing the rules and other events sprung up the numbers dropped to fewer than 20. Many cars that had been built and run when the event was new were no longer acceptable due to their original build. Recently the "rules" have been relaxed and the numbers have started to return. From reading the posts here I can sense a drop in the numbers as people are less than excited about modifying pre war cars. Near me at the Homestead Miami speedway they open pit road about once a month for people to drag race, it is only a 1/8 mile but still cool. Their "rules" are as follows

    Seat belts: All vehicles must have a minimum of OEM type lap belt system, securely mounted to frame or floor of vehicle

    Helmet: Required for convertibles, sunroofs, t-tops or open body cars; helmet must be Snell 2000 or newer (label inside of helmet is proof of certification)

    Tires: Must have DOT tires, technical inspector must qualify tires (no tire defects, worn out tread, damaged tires, plugs, etc.)

    Wheels: Hubcaps will be removed for inspectors who will check for loose or missing lug nuts and general condition of rims

    Batteries: Must be secured per OEM or minimum of two 3/8" diameter bolts (no bungee cords, straps, string, etc.); if located in trunk must have cut off switch installed unless factory installed

    Exhaust: All cars must have mufflers and not be over max decibel reading determined & approved by technical inspector

    Nitrous: Bottles must be stamped to meet DOT (1,800 lb. standard); must be securely mounted (no bungee cords, straps

    This is a timed event and all out drag race with people running everything from trucks to corvettes. Even a few that are trailered in.
     
  23. TERPU
    Joined: Jan 2, 2004
    Posts: 2,225

    TERPU
    Member

    Well, I suppose it had to get to this point. A lot of people have given all so that the rest of us can stay safe. If TROG requires a Roll Bar so be it. Tony Nancy made it look cool. Just follow his lead, alls well. Besides you can't smile without a face or if your missing your head altogether..........

    I'm in!

    - Tim
     
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  24. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 27,108

    The37Kid
    Member

    [​IMG]

    Just came across this, posted by KKrod, original cage got scrapped. Bob
     
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  25. Marty Strode
    Joined: Apr 28, 2011
    Posts: 4,857

    Marty Strode
    Member

    Tall roll bars and or cages would make for safety, but it will change the visual, just like today's Nostalgia
    Drags, far removed from the concept in the 80's.
     
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  26. -Brent-
    Joined: Nov 20, 2006
    Posts: 5,230

    -Brent-
    Member

    I think this is part of the evolution of the event. At first they had slow cars and weeded them out to show more race/fast cars. Well, once you get faster cars, stuff breaks and problems happen. It's true for any type of racing.
     
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  27. dreracecar
    Joined: Aug 27, 2009
    Posts: 3,005

    dreracecar
    Member
    from so-cal

  28. alanp561
    Joined: Oct 1, 2017
    Posts: 1,048

    alanp561
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Where can I get a " period correct " year/model brunette like the one in the last pic to dress up the inside of my roadster?;) Reminds me of the George Jones song, " Hotter Than a Two Dollar Pistol ".
     
  29. louisb
    Joined: Oct 13, 2008
    Posts: 982

    louisb
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I am guesing the old folks home.

    --louis
     
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  30. Ed Angel
    Joined: Nov 17, 2015
    Posts: 121

    Ed Angel

    That’s what I was told by The Race committee. Only open cars need roll bars .


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