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Hot Rods Roll bar for TROG

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Vonn Ditch, Mar 22, 2019.

  1. Vonn Ditch
    Joined: Aug 8, 2013
    Posts: 105

    Vonn Ditch
    Member
    from LA

    So I spent the winter building a model a roadster for the race, but the rules have changed and you have to have a roll bar. They say they can furnish a picture but I haven't seen what will be acceptable to them yet, anyone else seen what they will accept?
     
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  2. louisb
    Joined: Oct 13, 2008
    Posts: 982

    louisb
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I had heard that this may happen. I have been trying to figure out how to do it in my roadster.

    —louis
     
    Vonn Ditch likes this.
  3. How will a roll bar help in soft sand?
     
  4. It ain't soft at even 20 miles an hour if you rolled over.. It feels more like concrete that give a little when you hit it. I was there last year when Sushi and Jerimiah from Love Cycles laid down Bikes. They got banged up pretty good. It might be a ton of fun, but it is still racing.

    The Sand over all at Wildwood over all is pretty hard packed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
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  5. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 10,086

    Atwater Mike
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    They used to race on Daytona Beach...on the sand. Rollovers ended up much the same as if they'd been on asphalt or concrete. Sand was unforgiving.
    Roll bars should be 'head-high', but MUST be firmly attached to chassis (frame rails)
    Hole saw thru floor directly behind seat back. Drill thru welded 'feet' (3/8" thick) flanges at base of roll bar 'hoop'. Bolt securely with 7/16" bolts and nuts. Diagonal bar (s) can be removable from hoop, but securely bolted to frame at base (s)
    Diagonal bars compulsory as is in a rollover, where car is still in forward motion the upper hoop will tend to 'fold back', flattening onto the body, giving no protection.
    Rules may be written slightly differing, but with same 'common sense' in design.
     
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  6. Blues4U
    Joined: Oct 1, 2015
    Posts: 4,675

    Blues4U
    Member
    from So Cal

    I saw a discussion on this when they made that rule for VHRA racing at Pendine Sands. I don't understand it really, but the concerns were that a roll bar will dig in to sand, making a roll over crash worse.
     
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  7. Hollywood-East
    Joined: Mar 13, 2008
    Posts: 1,197

    Hollywood-East
    Member

    Sounds like insurance companies are the issue
     
  8. my2nd40
    Joined: Dec 11, 2003
    Posts: 194

    my2nd40
    Member
    from Tennessee

    Probably right about that. You can only have some good old fashioned fun beach racing for so long.
     
  9. I can not speak for the Oilers, but I would toward hot rods of the past for ideas.
    upload_2019-3-22_18-48-32.png upload_2019-3-22_18-49-5.png upload_2019-3-22_18-51-5.png upload_2019-3-22_18-54-52.png upload_2019-3-22_18-55-15.png upload_2019-3-22_18-58-30.png


    Crazy Uncle Henry's rail the ran the T.R.O.G. I would build the bar so it is above your head!
    upload_2019-3-22_19-3-42.png
     
  10. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 26,917

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Some of those look like they might get you hurt more than they would help you.
    It may be time to reach out to the Oilers and get a definitive answer before guys build bars that aren't going to pass but I'd say what Atwater Mike wrote in post 5 comes real close to what will be required. As he said the installation to the frame is every bit as important as the actural construction of the bar it's self.
    From seeing what happens in a street car if the roll bar is too close to your head and you don't have a proper racing seat or harness I'd want enough room between my head and the bars that if I bounced around a bit in a roll over my head (helmet) didn't hit the bar.
     
    loudbang likes this.
  11. 51 mercules
    Joined: Nov 29, 2008
    Posts: 2,985

    51 mercules
    Member

    I'm surprised they weren't required at TROG in Santa Barbara?
     
    mad mikey, Atwater Mike and loudbang like this.
  12. V8RPU
    Joined: Sep 23, 2010
    Posts: 221

    V8RPU
    Member
    from Nor Cal

    I find this kind of amusing. I was requested to remove the roll bar from my car in order to race at Santa Barbara. The car is an old Bonneville roadster and the bar had been a part of the car for decades.
     
  13. Marty Strode
    Joined: Apr 28, 2011
    Posts: 4,860

    Marty Strode
    Member

    For the Track Roadsters I build, this is how they are done. img20170201_15133302.jpg 2014-10-14 124717.jpg
     
  14. RidgeRunner
    Joined: Feb 9, 2007
    Posts: 851

    RidgeRunner
    Member
    from Western MA

    "Traditional look" is cool.

    "Traditional fun" is cool.

    Odds are transitioning either or both into "traditional sheet time" won't be so cool............

    Ed
     
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  15. Bearing Burner
    Joined: Mar 2, 2009
    Posts: 868

    Bearing Burner
    Member
    from W. MA

    "Traditional look" may be cool is a broken head or worse also cool. I would hope we learned something in50+years.
     
  16. Kenny P
    Joined: Dec 31, 2008
    Posts: 449

    Kenny P
    Member

    Such a downer. DOT helmets were required on day two last year because of the bike crash, now roll bars for roadsters.
    Like my2nd40 said..."You can only have some good old fashioned fun beach racing for so long."
    Gotta be an insurance thing.
     
    Vanness likes this.
  17. fleetside66
    Joined: Nov 20, 2006
    Posts: 2,530

    fleetside66
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    You know, I always wondered about that myself. Excuse me for the off-topic reference, but it directly pertains to the subject here. Years ago a bought a SCCA Solo approved roll bar kit for my early Miata & installed it myself. I had to gut the interior & sandwich steel plates here & there...a big shittin' deal. I didn't want it for racing, just for protection in the event of a rollover. When I finally sat in the car, I envisioned myself being whipped around in the rollover, with the top of my head even with the top of the roll bar. Now, if you're upside down, you're not going to be glued to your seat like when you're driving, you're going to be past the plane of the roll bar. Helmet or no helmet, your head & neck would still take a real beating. Maybe you wouldn't get squashed, but it still makes me a bit uneasy. Look at some of those roll bars in those pictures....way too low.
     
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  18. 56sedandelivery
    Joined: Nov 21, 2006
    Posts: 6,218

    56sedandelivery
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Robert J. Palmer's posting, with the dirt cars and their roll bar construction; must be so if they rolled over, you'd roll right back onto the wheels. Or just keep rolling over and over and over. I am Butch/56sedandelivery.
     
  19. Well that counts me out in the future.
     

    Attached Files:

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  20. Safety should be the main factor.
    I would much rather walk away from a crash, than tell everyone how cool my car looked without a rollbar from a hospital bed.

    I love period correct cars, and there is no reason you can't have a period correct safe roll bar!

    This is a a modern clone of an early 60's Lou Lazzaro N.A.S.C.A.R Sportsman, It has a square tube roll cage built like the original car.
    I would reather have have a well built square tube roll bar (or cage) then a poorly built D.O.M. roll bar.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Bruce Dostal Falcon which used square tube in the cage the car got air borne (above the flagstand) and flipped hard five times.
    Bruce walked away un-hurt.
    [​IMG][​IMG]


    They are damn luckly they are still allowed to run after last year!


    [​IMG]

    Old Racing saying "The Rule Book is writen in Blood."
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2019
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  21. If safety is the primary concern there should be no racing, especially no vintage racing. As far as period correct roll bars for the 20's or earlier I don't see that happening.

    I'm ok with that, I won't be hacking up a speedster to put in a roll bar so it counts me out. IMG_2372.JPG
     
  22. THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Joined: Jun 6, 2007
    Posts: 3,046

    THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER
    Member
    from FRENCHTOWN

    This bolt in roll bar in my T was legal in the 70s. I think at a minimum it should be this effective. I'll be doing a similar app on my single seater champ car, 3" above the top of my helmet.
    ccr01_1.jpg

    seat back 3 - harness tube.jpg
     
  23. Vonn Ditch
    Joined: Aug 8, 2013
    Posts: 105

    Vonn Ditch
    Member
    from LA

    I looked at my roadster this weekend to see about adding a roll bar. Options are, take the bench seat out and put in a bucket seat. Then I could build the roll bar. If I leave the bench seat the roll bar would have to go through the body. It's a jalopy, but I'm still not going to cut holes in the original Ford body, so that's out. With the bucket seat option, I'll still have to cut holes to get to the frame to mount the roll bar. Don't want to do that either.

    I've never missed a TROG event in New Jersey. I suppose the roll bar rule wont hurt the participation, but for me it just seems like step one to pulling the soul out of the event. It's sad that we can't pick a moment in the history of hot rodding, and live in that moment for one weekend.
     
  24. You missed my point I don't think a race car with histroy should be cut up, but the T.R.O.G. is competive racing full speed racing not just "at speed parade laps"
    The cars need to be period correct and safe.
    As much as I like old 20's-30's open wheel cars and think they need track time, they are not safe to do any real racing.

    I am currentley building a vintage car to race a local vintage club. all parts period correct and a era correct roll cage however with more door bars. The cage will be very much like the 10-Pins super mod build in 1960.[​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I will be building a floor so my feet are not exposed.
    [​IMG]

    My families histroy with oval track racing goes well back into the early days.
    upload_2019-3-25_9-4-40.png
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2019
  25. Binger
    Joined: Apr 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,655

    Binger
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from wyoming

    This is interesting. I understand for safety reasons the rule change. It also takes all the period correct out of any pre war style builds when you add a roll bar. Seems like this is shifting from a fun take your car out and play to a real race. Once the competition comes into things everything has to change. A lot of the safety responsibility lies in the drivers understanding that these type of events are for fun and isn't a proper place to "Give it all you got" for some of the higher horsepower cars and bikes. I think of it like a Civil War reenactment only with antique hot rods. A living History event so to speak. The organizers have put together a venue for people to bring out their toys and PLAY. A Sandbox that everyone brings their toys out to play in. I don't know how the TROG races are set up for matchups and so on but, Fun grudge race matchups instead of classes and brackets will keep things light and not super competitive. The minute someone turns over a car or smashes into a crowd things will be over. Not just for that particular event but for all similar events. Driver responsibility to keep cars straight and shiny side up. If you want all out racing go find a vintage drag racing event at a proper track that requires current safety protocols. Just My Opinion on things.
     
  26. Hollywood-East
    Joined: Mar 13, 2008
    Posts: 1,197

    Hollywood-East
    Member

    Agreed.... I don't want to be the one to say it... But the bikes are 100% more at risk... An why this thread exist..
     
  27. whiteknuckle
    Joined: Feb 6, 2007
    Posts: 39

    whiteknuckle
    Member
    from Dryden, NY

    Hopefully if you were racing and upside down you are strapped into your seat and "glued" to it.
     
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  28. Kenny P
    Joined: Dec 31, 2008
    Posts: 449

    Kenny P
    Member

    I love this topic.
    One side for safety, the other for period correct and or the cool factor.
    Mr. Palmer likes the safety side, although posting a photo of a roll barless family racer.
    I get the safety factor, but it if everything was geared toward safety, we would leave our cars unchopped, leave on the fenders, keep them bumpers, mufflers, mirrors, door handles, lowering them could be unsafe too! Blah Blah Blah You get the point.
    As far as TROG, First it was the dot helmets, now a roll bar, whats next, disc brakes? Fenders?
    Like everything else, we can't just "play", things always become competitive, things get faster and then someone gets hurt. Then it gets ruined. :(

    Anyways, look at that photo!!!
    It doesn't get much more cool looking than that, even if he had a roll bar, he still would look badass!
    Neat photo Mr. P.
    upload_2019-3-25_9-4-40.png
     
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  29. Road Racer
    Joined: Jan 29, 2017
    Posts: 38

    Road Racer

    Our Vintage road racing group wants a .120 wall 2 inch main hoop with a closed fist of clearance from the top of helmet to top of bar, no Y belt shoulder harnesses allowed.
     
    alanp561 likes this.
  30. I think the cars need to be safe but also need to be period correct
    Roll bars and seat belts have been around since auto racing started again after the end of the war.
    I don't think T.R.O.G. cars need funny car cages or full containment seats, but I have no issue with head high rolls bars. World War II aircraft used shoulder harnness.

    I have been at races where people were hurt and killed, a faimly friend was killed at the 1990 A.R.C.A. race at Daytona.
    My talk of safety is not just that of a casual obsever but someone who has seen the ugly side of things.

    This is my Great Uncle Don Weyl he was a crew men.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2019
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