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Technical Req. help with TH200-4R ID.

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by jaalcom, Jan 18, 2018.

  1. jaalcom
    Joined: May 8, 2017
    Posts: 36

    jaalcom
    Member
    from Maryland

    Looking to acquire a TH200-4R as a replacement for a PG behind a 327/300 in a full size Chevy. Found this but the tag looks to have been scoured clean. From what's visible can only tell it's of '82 vintage, Three Rivers, etc. Anyone spot indicators to narrow it down a bit more to verify desirability?

    TH200-4R_01.jpg TH200-4R_02.jpg TH200-4R_03.jpg
     
  2. 33 cdan man
    Joined: Sep 15, 2016
    Posts: 129

    33 cdan man

    The 200's do not have a removable tail housing. They are a one piece case like the one in your pic.
     
  3. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 10,770

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    Yes, that is a 2004R. If you are buying it as a core, planning to rebuild it, it's looks like a good start.

    Ray
     
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  4. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 16,253

    gimpyshotrods
    Member

    Yup. Grab it. Rebuild it, with a little hop-up stuff. That's a fits-all case. Getting harder to find.
     
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  5. Mike VV
    Joined: Sep 28, 2010
    Posts: 1,618

    Mike VV
    Member
    from SoCal

    Desirability wise, nothing special about the case. Make sure you give it to a shop that has a firm grasp on the 200-4R. They can be built to stock specs., or they can be built to withstand a pretty fair amount of torque/power. There are a lot of custom internal parts available for these transmissions, even different gear ratios.
    I don't know of anyone on the east coast, but there are a couple good shops on the west coast.
    Make sure the shop you go to...does a complete (dyno) test before you take it home. Try to be there when they do it so you can watch the details.

    Use care when setting up the TV cable on your car.

    Mike
     
  6. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 16,253

    gimpyshotrods
    Member

    Then find me one, or better yet, three.
     
  7. jaalcom
    Joined: May 8, 2017
    Posts: 36

    jaalcom
    Member
    from Maryland

    Thanks for the replies!

    I'm sorry, my question wasn't worded very well. I was attempting to find out if there were any visible signs as to what vehicle this may have come out of. As I'd also like to use the TC it could make a difference whether it was originally a v6 or v8 vehicle. If TC size is equatable to powerglide's use of the smaller behind a v6 I'd say this fill-the-housing example should be v8.

    I'll probably purchase it anyway. Can always core it out, likely for the same price, if I find something objectionable.
     
  8. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 16,253

    gimpyshotrods
    Member

    Converter stall speed can be roughly judged by the diameter. Generally, the smaller the diameter, the higher the stall speed.

    Smaller engines, from the factory generally got smaller diameter converters, to take advantage of torque multiplication.

    The converter in the pictures is not a small converter.
     
  9. jaalcom
    Joined: May 8, 2017
    Posts: 36

    jaalcom
    Member
    from Maryland

    Appreciate the reply and insight!

    This trans will be backing up a nearly bone stock 327/300 in a Sunday cruiser so stock is what she'll be. I was the trans/transaxle overhaul tech at Mitsubishi dealers for many years so will be doing the refresh myself. Sadly I've only rebuilt one domestic auto (powerglide) among the many saginaw/muncie's.

    Yeah, I hear the TV cable (geometry & adjustment) can make or break the life expectancy of these transmissions.
     
  10. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 16,253

    gimpyshotrods
    Member

    They are not hard to rebuild. I do them, and other GM transmissions, on a regular basis.

    Here is some helpful info: http://shop.ukrtrans.biz/wp-content/uploads/catalogs/TH2004R.pdf

    The TV cable setup is not hard. You will need the proper bracket for the cable, and geometry corrector for the carburetor bellcrank.
     
  11. jaalcom
    Joined: May 8, 2017
    Posts: 36

    jaalcom
    Member
    from Maryland

    That's what I thought I was seeing. :cool:
     
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  12. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 16,253

    gimpyshotrods
    Member

    There are probably ought-zillion videos on Youtube, too.
     
  13. jaalcom
    Joined: May 8, 2017
    Posts: 36

    jaalcom
    Member
    from Maryland

    Much appreciate the PDF!
     
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  14. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 16,253

    gimpyshotrods
    Member

    The only thing that worries me is re-using an unknown converter, because they cannot truly be fully flushed.

    Pull off the pan, and look for debris. If you see anything but red fluid, consider that some of it is in the converter.

    That will end up back in the transmission, if you re-use it. In the event that there is debris, I would get a re-manufactured or new converter.
     
  15. gimpyshotrods
    Joined: May 20, 2009
    Posts: 16,253

    gimpyshotrods
    Member

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  16. jaalcom
    Joined: May 8, 2017
    Posts: 36

    jaalcom
    Member
    from Maryland

    Thanks again!

    Looks like a perfect kit for my needs as it beefs up only the OEM shortcomings as pertain to stock use. Also, that was a wise suggestion regarding the TC.
     
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  17. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 9,563

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    The torque converter has a clutch in it also so using a used one is a gamble.
     
  18. There are basically two styles of full size 200 4R converters. V8 (about 1600 stall) , and V6 (2000).
    Nothing wrong with using a V6 converter in a hot rod. Same basic parts, strength.
    As stated, always a crap shoot on a used l/u converter, even if clean inside.
     
  19. Mike VV
    Joined: Sep 28, 2010
    Posts: 1,618

    Mike VV
    Member
    from SoCal

    Mark Yac -

    Your comment isnt completely correct. "Maybe" in "stock" form 1600 and 2000 stall speeds are available, but in the aftermarket, there are MANY different stall speeds to be bought, both with AND without the lockup clutch.
    One of the more well known rebuilders actually recommends a "non-lockup" converter for the more performance applications.
    I have three 200-4R's and one is by the rebuilder noted. He talked me into a standard converter. I asked him about the warranty/guarantee. He said sure, "it still stands". "I can't count the non-lockup 200-4R's of mine on the street with no problems.
    The only thing he said is that I need a GOOD cooler. No problem I said..!


    Jalcom -
    And for what it's worth, I agree, that unless you know the exact history of the trans., a fresh converter (and external cooler) is in order.

    Mike
     
  20. "There are basically two styles of full size OEM 200 4R converters. V8 (about 1600 stall) , and V6 (2000)."
    Better, Mike?
    The o/p's question was whether or not he could use a V6 converter.
     
  21. Davyj
    Joined: Jul 11, 2011
    Posts: 442

    Davyj
    Member

    here is a chart for the pan on the bottom.

    somewhere i have the diagram for a tvr cable on a carb,

    i would recommend the TCI lock up kit, they work well and are easy to install, a trick you can use too is to run the power wire for the lock up through a gm brake switch that has the terrminals for the cruise control.....that way the power goes off when you apply the brakes
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  22. jaalcom
    Joined: May 8, 2017
    Posts: 36

    jaalcom
    Member
    from Maryland

    Thanks again everyone for the great input and insight, was useful now and will be in the future. :)

    I went to pick up the trans this afternoon and it ended up being a no-go...at the moment. While there it came to light that he bought it 12 years ago for his vehicle but decided to go manual instead. He never had any history on, nor, never did any inspection of the unit. This seller had no qualms about pulling the pan. When we flipped it over I quickly noticed there were only 3 pan bolts installed. With the pan off there was a small amount of very fine sparklies along with a couple flakes. This wasn't particularly concerning but then my eye caught something missing -- The governor and cover plate were gone. While we discussed that he also noted he had a box with parts and pieces for a VB shift kit the previous owner gave him when he bought the trans. It looked like not enough springs and check balls to be a complete kit so have to assume it was already installed.

    I passed on the trans to allow time to decide if the cost of additional parts and the hassle of determining previous mods was minimal or not worth while. It looks like about $75 for the missing governor parts which I can haggle him for but returning the VB back to stock could be a problem. I'm thinking the hunt for a bargain TH200-4R continues...
     
  23. saltflats
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 9,563

    saltflats
    Member
    from Missouri

    If you haven't been in one before it does help if you start with one that was assembled like the one in a manual.
     
  24. Good point , and always try to find one that is stock and unmolested.
    I've got one here in a GTO that somebody spent too much time on the internet and talking to various builders on.
    Still haven't figured out everything he did to it, but it looks like I'm going to go back into it. :(:(
     
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  25. mgtstumpy
    Joined: Jul 20, 2006
    Posts: 7,628

    mgtstumpy
    Member

    upload_2018-1-23_0-51-10.png
    • 1982-1985 transmissions use a two letter code on the tag & 1986-1990 transmissions use a three letter code with an "F" at the end of the code
    • 1982-85 transmissions use a 13 digit numbering system to show what it is & when it was built. These numbers are on the bottom of the transmission tag below the letter code {EXAMPLE: 123 2T85CQ1234}.
      • The first three digits are the Julian date {the date the transmission was built, julian date is the start of trans production so 001 would not be january 1st.
      • The 4th digit is the Plant Shift the transmission was built {1=1st shift; 2=2nd shift; 3=3rd shift}.
      • The 5th digit may be a letter or number & is the code for the Hydramatic plant that the trans was built at.
      • The 6th & 7th digits are the model year of the vehicle the trans was originally installed in.
      • The 8th and 9th digits are the two letter code of the transmission & denotes internal parts & valve body calibration of the unit.
      • The 10th through 13th digits is the serial number of the unit.
    • 1986-1990 transmissions use a 15 digit numbering system {EXAMPLE: 9 123 2T86CZF 1234}.
      • The 1st digit is the Calender year the unit was built.
      • The 2nd,3rd, & 4th digits are the Julian Date {see above}.
      • The 5th digit is the Plant Shift the trans was built.
      • The 6th digit is the Hydramatic plant the trans was built at.
      • The 7th & 8th digits are the model year of the vehicle the trans was installed in.
      • The 9th & 10th digits are the two letter code of the transmission & denotes internal parts & valve body calibration of the unit.
      • The 11th digit is the letter "F". This denotes that the trans is a 200-4R {GM decided to add a third letter to the code that will show what transmission family it is, 200C = "B", 200-4R = "F", 700-R4 = "M", etc...}.
      • The last 4 numbers are the serial number of the unit.
    200Rs were found in:-
    TH2004RBell.jpg
    • 1981-'88 Buick LeSabre and Electra RWD
    • 1981 Century
    • 1981-'87 Regal
    • 1981-'90 Cadillac Fleetwood, Deville and Brougham
    • 1982-'90 Chevrolet Impala and Caprice
    • 1981-'88 Chevelle, Monte Carlo, Malibu and El Camino
    • 1984-'87 GMC Caballero
    • 1982-'90 Olds Delta 88, 98 and Custom Cruiser
    • 1983-'88 Olds Cutlass 4-4-2 and Supreme
    • 1983-'89 Pontiac Bonneville, Parisienne and Safari Wagon
    • 1981 Pontiac Firebird with 301
    • 1984-'87 Pontiac Grand Prix

      The transmission identification is on a plate on the right side of the case towards the tailshaft. This ID tag is usually held on by one rivet. The plate will have a two- or three-letter transmission code in large letters, and then a 13- or 14-digit identification number along the bottom:
      • 1st digit: month of production (A through M, skipping the letter "I")
      • 2nd-3rd: production day of the month
      • 4th: shift transmission was produced (1st-3rd shift)
      • 5th: assembly plant (T: Three Rivers, MI; J: Windsor, Canada; W: Warren, MI)
      • 6th-7th: decade and year
      • 8th-9th: or 8th-10th: transmission ID code
      • 10th-13th: or 11th-14th: transmission serial number
     

    Attached Files:

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  26. TexasT
    Joined: Dec 25, 2007
    Posts: 54

    TexasT
    Member
    from Texas

    Yes, as already identified, an AA code from an 82 Cadillac. If economical enough, you might consider picking it up for parts. I would be leary of it without the matching vb/gov combo. These are a set from the factory and mixing/matching is a hit and miss effort, and can result in a lot of frustration and trans fluid baths dropping the pan repeatedly trying to get the shifts sorted out.

    That cpt kit might work but i'm not a fan of the alto clutches. Not that they don't work, just that I think there are better choices. With a 2004r of the two letter variety(and really all of them as they are now a bit long in the tooth) there are some upgrades you need, Hardened stator support and sun shell, to replace the factory pieces. I like a .500 boost valve and a .283/.296 rev boost valve and the stiffer 700r4 spring in that valve to get the internal pressure up. Hard pump rings and I used a sonnax slide spring(I was told later that I should have put the stock small spring in there too).

    I see that kit includes bushings. I would also ask for a teflon coated pump bushing(be sure to "stake" it in there on the early pump), a seal retainer for the front seal, and a set of bearings to replace those originals. On the early two letter ones there is a bushing in the planetary that needs replaced with a bearing that comes with the set. Drill out the return in the pump to help alleviate the pressure and help it not push the seal out.

    [​IMG]
    the bushing that needs a bearing.

    [​IMG]
    Bottom feed 700r4 filter
    [​IMG]
    You need to cover that switch so it doesn't ground out on the metal filter and cause probs
    [​IMG]
    This is the core I used for my little project.
    [​IMG]
    The paint mark on the vb.

    I used a larger sonnax 2nd servo and a carbon band. Kevlar isn't as good imo.
    I used the raybestos red stage one clutches. You must set these up "tight" for a good 2-3 shift. The rest are standard tans. Lots of little tricks. Let me know if you want additional info.
     
    Hnstray likes this.
  27. @TexasT
    I'd like to ask for a bit of help Rich.
    The code AA in my 50 needs some help. I had it rebuilt about 3 years ago now, but the 1-2 shift is shot.

    I've been working on it last year, but I think the band is fried now.
    I tried a sonax big servo and when that didn't help I put a 0.423 boost valve and checked the 1-2 accumulator.

    It turned out the accumulator bore was warn out and not sealing, so I made a cut seal and put a new oversized pin in it but the band is already ruined.

    I'm going to give it a go to tear it down and replace the frictions, and a new wide band.
    Should I get a new direct drum for it?
     
  28. 1946caddy
    Joined: Dec 18, 2013
    Posts: 1,501

    1946caddy
    Member
    from washington

    Mine came out of a mid 80's Cadillac and has the dual mounting option so it will work on the Cadillac and Chevy blocks.
    002.jpg
     
  29. TexasT
    Joined: Dec 25, 2007
    Posts: 54

    TexasT
    Member
    from Texas

    Be glad to help if I can. I sent you a message on the https://www.thommyknocker.com site as I couldn't find a place to message here. I wouldn't put too much into the accumulator bore. How did you set the clearance on the servo? I like a carbon band. I'm using a stock width and I think it is fine. Clearances are the main thing on these trans. You cant just slap em together, they don't do well if they are set up right. Let me know on the links and I'll get em on the way.

    Happy to help if anyone else needs any. I'm no guru but many helped me when i assembled mine so I think it only right to help those who ask.
     

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