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Replacing the Borg Warner R10 solenoid... with a lever?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by Kevin Lee, Feb 23, 2012.

  1. Kevin Lee
    Joined: Nov 12, 2001
    Posts: 7,442

    Kevin Lee
    Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Picked up a really nice '49 Mercury overdrive transmission for my truck. Looking it over and noticed the governor cap was busted so I decide to remove it, the solenoid, and anything else that could get damaged kicking around the garage.

    So I unbolt the solenoid, give it a 1/4 turn to remove it and I felt the end twist off inside of the adapter plate/block that stops the planetary ring. It was so easy I have to believe it was already on the way out. But no problem, I'll just fish the busted piece out since I have to get a 12V solenoid anyway.

    Err... found one here for $265. That's over 2 1/2 times what I paid for the box itself.

    So the question is: Do you think I could just go full manual with everything? If you bypass the kickdown you're essentially making it a manual operation anyway (switch to turn the solenoid on) so seems like a short jump to just go with a carefully fabricated linkage there.

    At 27mph you could flip the lever, yank the OD handle and go.

    I'm thinking it could be a cable actuated arrangement using a cam, some bronze bushings and a return spring. It could easily be smaller than the solenoid too.
     
  2. Hnstray
    Joined: Aug 23, 2009
    Posts: 12,235

    Hnstray
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Quincy, IL

    I have no idea if what you are proposing will work or not......but...I think I may have a used 12v Ford/BW solenoid I am not using and if I do.....it will be waaaaaay cheaper than the one you found somewhere.

    I will look for it, see if it works, and let you know......if you are interested, fine, if not that's okay too. :)

    Ray

    edit: found the little bugger..is missing the center pin, one end cap stud........don't think it going to be of much use. Sorry. Ray
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2012
  3. Kevin Lee
    Joined: Nov 12, 2001
    Posts: 7,442

    Kevin Lee
    Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Definitely interested –*let me know.

    Still though, can't shake the idea of eliminating it all together.
     
  4. There used to be someone in Ohio who modified the old B/w overdrives with a manual actuation instaed of the solenoid. I believe he specialized in model A's. You might try the Ford barn as well.
    Matt
     

  5. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    Let me know what happens...I'll see how buried the Merc trans is. I sort of understand that the solenoids use different levers that can be transferred, bu that's what you broke, I guess? I think for manual you probably need the inner lever and the gutted solenoid in order to have something to push manually.
    FWIW, there is an outfit selling replacement 12 V solenoids. Don't have the link but I think I could find them...something like Park Avenue garage.

    AHA! Not Park Ave...they're over on fifth, same place you found....$$$!!!
     
  6. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,856

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    Are you saying you broke the ball at the end of the solenoid? Seems to me that would take some serious force.

    There's no reason you couldn't fabricate something to get the job done, but don't give up so quickly on a replacement solenoid. They're pretty stout and durable and I'd say that a used one would be a good risk at the right price. By the way, my friend has been using a 6V solenoid on 12 volts for about 15 years with no problems.
     
  7. HEATHEN
    Joined: Nov 22, 2005
    Posts: 7,591

    HEATHEN
    Member
    from SIDNEY, NY

    Several years ago, J.C. Whitney sold a retrofit handle and cable setup that did just what you're proposing---eliminated the solenoid.
     
  8. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    If it is just the ball broken off...there would not be much to lose trying welding. Keeping that part alive would greatly facilitate manual adaptation too.
     
  9. Dale Fairfax
    Joined: Jan 10, 2006
    Posts: 2,585

    Dale Fairfax
    Member Emeritus

    There's a guy in N.Y. State who, in addition to his regular business of rebuilding Model A engines, makes a lever operated device to replace the solenoid. I bought one from him (haven't installed it yet) but damned if I can remember his name. He's probably known to the Model A guys on the Fordbarn.
     
  10. Bruce Lancaster
    Joined: Oct 9, 2001
    Posts: 21,682

    Bruce Lancaster
    Member Emeritus

    I think the gadgets generally work the control lever or an electrical circuit and do not actually replace the 'noid.
     
  11. HEATHEN
    Joined: Nov 22, 2005
    Posts: 7,591

    HEATHEN
    Member
    from SIDNEY, NY

    The one I mentioned was intended to replace it. There was an article in one of the "restoration" magazines a few years ago about it, but I can't remember where.
     
  12. DRUGASM
    Joined: Dec 16, 2008
    Posts: 2,806

    DRUGASM
    Member

    Id be interested to see how this plays out. I get pissed when I am on a road trip and for some reason don't time the OD right ( usually on a clover leaf style on ramp). It would be much easier to have it manual rather than trying to stop and restart the delicate dance of tagging OD while merging on a busy highway.
     
  13. Mike51Merc
    Joined: Dec 5, 2008
    Posts: 3,856

    Mike51Merc
    Member

    Stop and restart? Delicate dance? Are you sure it's working right?

    I have a blast with mine and I don't even have the kickdown connected. I let it upshift to OD in second and if I need to pass on the highway I manually downshift to 2nd OD.
     
  14. T Fritz
    Joined: Jul 1, 2010
    Posts: 175

    T Fritz
    Member


    I run mine this way too. I will run 1st and then 1st overdrive in a stop light drag. Over 100,000 miles on the unit in the car right now and would never ever think of using another transmission of any type.

    Fritz
     
  15. BuiltFerComfort
    Joined: Jan 24, 2007
    Posts: 1,620

    BuiltFerComfort
    Member

    Check also on the p-15/24 forum, lots of Mopar cars used this overdrive. Someone there has done just what you are suggesting, using a lever. Also from that forum, I think also there are aftermarket 12V relays available that will work - originally for non-automotive applications.
     
  16. That's a great idea Kevin! I wonder if it could be setup for both to be actuated off of the same cable.
     
  17. Kevin Lee
    Joined: Nov 12, 2001
    Posts: 7,442

    Kevin Lee
    Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    ...quickie pencil and sharpie. The start of the backup plan if a 12V replacement isn't found.
     

    Attached Files:

    bct likes this.
  18. TagMan
    Joined: Dec 12, 2002
    Posts: 6,181

    TagMan
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I've got a B-W O.D. unit that's two lever/cable operated, welded in the torque tube on my '37 Chevy coupe. It works great, but it doesn't disengage automatically - I MUST remember to disengage it before trying to back up or I'll break it. Been in there for 20 years or so with a 235 engine and works great with no problems.
     
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  19. Am following this for the out come as would like to put an OD trans in a semi stock X member in a 40 Ford. Good Luck!!!
     
  20. Never thought much of the kick down off the carb - just knew what I was doing and shoved in the overdrive handle to kick it out if I needed to pass.

    just my two cents...

    lwf
     
  21. Can a hydraulic solenoid valve type mechanism not be adapted? Electromagnet operated. Thinking of the actuator, not what the actuator does in it's original enviroment. Muncie Power, Force, common 12v operated stuff. The throw of the unit will decide everything and it would need to overcome spring release pressure if done as a straight line need of movement.
    Adapt an Eaton 113745 two speed motor? Needs electric to apply and disengage. Kind of big too, off of medium duty truck stuff stuff.
     
  22. Kevin Lee
    Joined: Nov 12, 2001
    Posts: 7,442

    Kevin Lee
    Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Pretty stoked
     

    Attached Files:

  23. rotorwrench
    Joined: Apr 21, 2006
    Posts: 633

    rotorwrench
    Member

    The later convertible cars used a rocker arm plate that mounted the solenoid down under the trans so it wouldn't stick out where the frame was beefed up P/N 8A-6910. There is a drawing of it in the 49 to 53 Ford chassis parts catalog. The rocker idea can easily be adapted to mechanical linkage. I've purchased several decent solenoids off fleapay and all they needed was cleaning of the points unter the cap at the end.

    Fifth Avenue Internet Garage sells new replacements but they are pricey. There is a post on here somewhere about a person that made his own rocker set up so the trans would fit his frame. I'll have to see if I can find it. It looks a lot like the convertible contraption.
     
  24. flacoman
    Joined: Oct 5, 2006
    Posts: 75

    flacoman
    Member
    from Sunrise FL

    80's Volvos used a similar overdrive IIRC ;had the button on the shifter knob.
     
  25. 42merc
    Joined: Dec 19, 2010
    Posts: 789

    42merc
    Member

    I believe your are asking for a lot of grief by eliminating the solenoid. By going manual you're giving up the convenience of electric shifting plus damage to the OD if you fail to disengage at the proper time. A cheaper 6 volt solenoid will go for years on 12 volts.
    I run a Lincoln OD with torque tube in my '40 coupe, 6 volt solenoid on 12 volts. If I wanted to shift manually I could have gone to an aftermarket driveshaft mounted OD for alot less trouble.
     
  26. Kevin Lee
    Joined: Nov 12, 2001
    Posts: 7,442

    Kevin Lee
    Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    So I have the busted end out and I am now looking to these photos for a possible solution. (looks much more simple than my cam idea from earlier) PM is on the way to the user "Muffin" who originally posted it... but in the meantime I'm trying to figure out exactly how the pivots at each end work. Seems like the bellcranks at each end would need to be slotted to keep the movement parallel?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  27. Kevin Lee
    Joined: Nov 12, 2001
    Posts: 7,442

    Kevin Lee
    Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    ...and it definitely helps solve the problem of pedal/crossmember interference with the solenoid.
     
  28. 194950ply
    Joined: May 11, 2011
    Posts: 3

    194950ply
    Member

    New to the discussion. Question? What are your problems? Broken shaft on the solenoild, right?. Is there mounting problems with the solenoid in the original position?.
    Are you using 12v.? Right?.
    After looking at all posts twice: IF solonoid will fit in origianl mount position do it, find a 12v. solenoid-many brands of cars had this od trans section added to their trans, the solenoids are 96 1/2 % the same(few variations). The only diff. is the throw lenght of the solenoid with most at 1". Look on ebay for a 56 year and up as almost all mfg's had changed to 12v. by then. last one i bought on ebay was $75 + ship.

    AS for on the shift in/out-- I have changed mine to where the cable is always in (od engaged position) with a switch to turn on ground (the govenor is only there to provide ground about approx. 25-27 mph.) . Ileave the switch the switch ON, BUT i have installed a VW locking type on relay with a button on the end of my shifter to shift OD on or off.

    To shift OD on, i push button, let off gas and wait about 1 sec. then back on gas in OD. To downshift out of OD, push button, let off gas, about 1/2 sec. then back on gas.

    Button can be any where to suit you. Only supplies a ground momentarily to VW relay.

    If interested, i will look for the wiring diagram i drew up and has the solenoid (VW) part #. I found this relay online for about $30 plus ship. Prices online varied greatly from $30-$120!!!

    You will probably love having an OD trans as i have with my 50 ply 4 dr. Stocker (flat 6 with 100 hp!!

    Let me know about diagram if interested.
    Doug
     
    kidcampbell71 likes this.
  29. silverdome
    Joined: Aug 23, 2007
    Posts: 553

    silverdome
    Member

    If you have the shaft out then a good machine shop should be able to weld this up and turn it down to original size for an hour or less worth of work. As long as the steel is not something that will harden and become brittle when welded.
     

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