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Technical Rebel Wire Harness diagrams and wiring info

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by REBEL43, Aug 30, 2018.

  1. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 648

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    Right, when you use your key, or key and push button, whichever combination, you're just sending power to the solenoid (which is just really a heavy duty relay) and the solenoid is carrying the load of the starter, not the switch and push button. Basically relays and solenoids have internal components like copper windings and armatures that enable them to carry higher current loads and they can be switched off and on by a lower current load.
     
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  2. JeffB2
    Joined: Dec 18, 2006
    Posts: 7,462

    JeffB2
    Member
    from Phoenix,AZ

    Since the subject of relays and electric fans came up there is some good info found here: https://watsons-streetworks.com/a-current-topic/ A lot of guys will source electric fans from local Pick-A-Parts the MK VIII was popular but these OEM fans draw a lot more than many of the aftermarket fans so a larger relay is in order. Your local Fry's Electronics has those 70/80 amp relays with the pigtail for about $13,I also added the larger relay to my ignition switch as suggested in the link above.
     
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  3. Tacson
    Joined: Jul 14, 2006
    Posts: 823

    Tacson
    Member


    JeffB,
    That article was a good read in simplistic enough terminology
     
  4. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 25,591

    The37Kid
    Member

    Could someone please explain how much the "stuff" flowing through an automotive wire looks like? I can stick weld, and used to Heli Arc aluminum race car bodies, sure would like to see what the wiring fire looks in a car when things go bad. Bob
     
  5. You never seen pictures or videos? Really? Google will have plenty. Yes, cars catch on fire and burn from electrical faults/problems!

     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
  6. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 25,591

    The37Kid
    Member

    No, not the actual car fire what does the stuff flowing through the wires look like, if you used the flawed "it's just like water BS" how long would it take to fill a cup? Electricity is so close to religion, you can't see either IMO. Bob
     
  7. You want to see electrons? Masses of them moving through wire? Mmm, I've not seen that.
     
  8. It's very rare that the metal part of the wire gets hot enough to melt. The wire will heat up and the insulation will catch fire, and the wire can get hot enough to start adjoining materials on fire.

    What usually happens is one wire will overheat and start the insulation burning, this in turn damages/shorts other wires and away it goes, catastrophic fire. If the fire gets hot enough, it may melt some of the smaller wires, but that isn't common. I used to strip scrap wire by burning it (a big no-no these days... Neighbor: 'what were you burning last night, sure had a lot of pretty colors!'), never lost any wire metal to the fire.
     
  9. BruceMc
    Joined: Aug 30, 2011
    Posts: 76

    BruceMc
    Member
    from Alaska

    In the "just like water" analogy, you're asking how long it would take to charge a capacitor. I'm guessing that probably wasn't your intent?


    Well, you can't see gravity, either. Still, it pays to try to understand the rules.
     
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  10. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 648

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    Back on the rails this morning... I talk to a lot of guys about ammeter or amp gauge wiring. It always comes down to what you're using for an alternator/generator and a gauge. I know a lot of guys don't want that dead gauge sitting there and want to see it move, but honestly, how much is that gauge telling you or how many people know how to interpret what it's telling you? The wiring is also different: routing, size of the wire needed, etc.

    So let's say you want to reuse that old amp meter, which on most setups is around a 30-40 amp gauge capacity, because that's what the charging system used to be. Then you go in and upgrade to that one wire alternator, which is probably at least 80-100 amp. Now granted in the ideal situation, that alternator should only put out what is needed by the system, and that old amp meter should really be sitting at 0, not charge or discharge all the time, meaning you're system is using what is being put out by the alternator (like it should be). So basically if you're not adding a bunch of electronics, you might be safe using that old amp meter with your upgraded charging system, the safer gauge is a volt meter, but if your alternator ever sees the need, it has the capability to fry that old gauge. So you add in some electronics, air conditioning, electric wipers... and have all of it on going down the road, you do run the risk of overloading that old gauge. Kind of like running a higher pressure fuel pump with an old carb setup. That needle/seat and float setup might work for a while on higher pressure, but why push your luck? For those that want to know the difference in wiring the amp meter vs a volt meter, here's a quick drawing:
    amp meter vs volt meter wiring.jpg
    So you can imagine the way that amp meter works. if what is used by the system is equal to what's being put out, the needle sits at zero. If the system is using more that what's supplied, it moves to discharge, if there's an excess over what the system needs, it moves to charge. Also if your battery was ever discharged, or you decided to boost someone off, you would see it jump up to the charge side.

    For anyone who wants to know about amp meters in depth, just call Mark at Mad Electric. Very nice and knowledgeable guy, and willing to tell you anything you could ever want to know on the subject. His website is also full of information http://www.madelectrical.com/index.shtml
     
  11. brianf31
    Joined: Aug 11, 2003
    Posts: 448

    brianf31
    Member

    Great thread. I'm going to call and order a harness later today.
     
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  12. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 648

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    Thanks! We just got back from delivering kits to the Shades of the Past show. Got your order ready to go out first thing in the morning
     
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  13. 1929rats
    Joined: Aug 18, 2006
    Posts: 590

    1929rats
    Member

    spot on about that am-meter gauge opposed to the volt gauge. Had a fire in one of my cars under the dash because of that damn thing years ago (95 or 96). I was younger and didn't know better, its been a volt gauge ever since in any car or boat I've built. very good tip for a modern powered resto.
     
  14. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 648

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    Here's a couple switches that are always quick to wire, mainly because they're just open and closed switches. So they just make or break connection. Brake switches, reverse lights, neutral safety switch, most of these are just open and closed switches. Mechanical or hydraulic, won't make a difference. This picture is from about a 60 Impala, reverse lights and neutral safety. I just labeled the picture and sent it back in an email.
    60 impala.png

    Here's just a simple video showing that a brake switch just makes or breaks continuity, and you can check the switch with a simple mulitmeter set to ohms, on a low 200 scale, or even power in and a test light... So your pedal sits against the plunger, keeping the circuit "open" and when you press the pedal it allows the plunger to spring out and "close" the circuit. Then power is allowed to pass though it and go searching for a ground, hopefully to find it at the rear brake light bulbs. I know the video is short, but I originally made it for Instagram and the limit is 1 minute!
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
  15. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 9,610

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    I have a pair of reproduction 37 Ford taillights that are LED. 2 wires, a green and a black. How are they wired in for tail stop and signals ?
    I have a 3 pole flasher and also a Limeworks column mounted turn signal switch.
     
  16. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 648

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    They must be self grounding, and use one wire for tail lights, and the other wire would be stop and turn. Your turn signal switch has to have a brake light wire running into it, and the switch sorts out brake from turn before sending power back to the rear. The 3 pin flasher is (X power, L load, and P pilot) just like a 2 pin, but with an extra Pilot terminal for the turn indicator in the switch or a single indicator bulb. All I would do first is ground the housings and bench test the lights by powering up the 2 wires one at a time to see which wire lights up bright and which one is dim. That will tell you which wire is for running lights (dim) and which one is brake/turn signals (bright). Let me know if you need any help with all of it.

    There's a picture of 2 bulbs back up in this thread, of bench testing some 1157 bulbs. Yours would work the same way, but they ground by the housing and not by having a separate ground wire
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
  17. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 648

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    The turn signal switch/bulb wiring will basically wire this way, just according to your Limeworks switch colors and the 3 pin flasher instead of the 2 pin. You can see how the turn signal switch takes the brake switch power and sorts it out before sending power back to the rear lights. If it didn't do that, everytime you hit the brake, it would over ride the turn signals and just go solid instead of being able to blink one while the other side was solid

    turn-brake circuit.jpg
     
  18. Flathead Dave
    Joined: Mar 21, 2014
    Posts: 2,131

    Flathead Dave
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from So. Cal.

    This would be a good post in a special section on the HAMB. A section strictly dedicated to tutorials by the pro's of the companies that produce specific items needed for car building. Not for advertising.

    Rebel Wire
    American Wire
    Holly
    etc.
     
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  19. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 648

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    I'd go for that. When I started this, I intended for it to go that way, but you know how plans go sometimes. Figured it would be a good way to reach some people having wiring issues but were banging their heads on the wall instead of calling for help. I've been that guy before. Don't always have an answer, but I do luck out and fix it more often than not
     
  20. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 648

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    I did this a while back just to inform guys about turn signal switches/ and bulb operation in general

    add on turn signal tech sheet 001.jpg
     
  21. Glad you posted this. I have a clamp on turn signal switch that has a 3 position 3 pole switch, on/off/on.
    Also has light at the end of the stalk. It's not the metal Chinese ones, it's bakelite.
     
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  22. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 648

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    Hope it helped. I think I could do turn signal tech all the time. It can be tricky. I just did a old VW beetle where I used a combination of an LED and a thermal flashers for turn and hazards to “smooth out” the flash rate. I went through about 4 different combinations of flashers to get it how I wanted it. What caused the issue was a combination of aftermarket LED’s and stock incandescents with a single indicator in the dash, but it all worked out nicely
     
  23. Tacson
    Joined: Jul 14, 2006
    Posts: 823

    Tacson
    Member

    Rebel 43,
    I was reading an article from Rod & Custom 2009 article. It was telling how to check for a short. The technique was to remove the negative battery cable and clip the negative side of a test light to the negative battery cable. Then connect the positive side of the test light to the positive battery terminal. They called it a "draw test". The article went on to say if the light comes on you have a "short". In this instance how is ground being made to complete the loop since there is no connection back to the GROUND side of the battery? The cable itself is disconnected. I realize the cable is grounded to the frame probably. Thanks
     
  24. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 648

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    That’s funny, just because I did this myself yesterday. You pull either cable, only one, and the test light goes in between the cable and the battery terminal. The other battery cable stays connected to the battery like normal.

    It is a draw test, but I did mine in the negative cable, doesn’t really matter. The bulb element just lights up when you have a parasitic draw. The more the draw, the brighter the light. It’s all a complete circuit, whatever is drawing has a complete circuit when it shouldn’t, just like a switch is on, or some contacts are closed somewhere when they shouldn’t be. I actually made myself a long test light so I could pull fuses one at a time while watching the bulb to see when it goes out. When you pull the fuse for the drawing circuit the bulb will go out. So I made one with about 12ft leads so I could connect to the battery and bring the bulb in the truck with me
    BFD6DA4F-21EF-4FFA-AC29-496D4F0ED253.jpeg
    Turned out mine was an interior light. Even with the bulbs pulled, but the truck also had a delay timer, so I’m thinking the contacts were probably sticking in the relay. When I pulled that fuse the bulb went out completely. That’s great timing on the question, very relevant!

    Basically you’re right that it still has a path to ground and it’s all a complete circuit. You’re just using the bulb element as an indicator to show you that you have a draw and when you’ve found it. keep in mind small draw, very dim bulb on can be normal, since you might have a small draw from something like the memory on a newer radio
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2018
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  25. Tacson
    Joined: Jul 14, 2006
    Posts: 823

    Tacson
    Member


    Ok so BOTH cables DO NOT have to be connected to the battery terminals to do testing.

    A parasitic draw as you called it can happen because the ground was found without both + and - battery cables being connected to the respective battery terminals. Hence the the name "short".

    Am I understanding it correctly??
     
  26. GordonC
    Joined: Mar 6, 2006
    Posts: 1,414

    GordonC
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    REBEL43 I don't know about the rest of the guys but I see a product there in that test lite that could me marketed and sold!
     
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  27. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 648

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    You want both cables connected to the battery, but one will have the bulb inline between the cable and the battery terminal. So In my case I left the positive cable connected and put my test light between the negative cable and the battery post. The light came on because something had a path to ground.

    Even though both cables are connected, nothing should have a complete path to hot and ground because all the switches are “off” when you turn a switch “on” then you should have a path to ground. So with a parasitic draw it’s basically like you left a switch on and it drains the battery. I’ll recreate mine sometime today and take some pictures to show it
     
  28. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 648

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    I had thought about building one to use in the shop and had this draw problem come up so it was a good time to build it. Then it just kept getting fancier. It worked out great. I’m always needing little stuff like that.
     

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