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Technical Rebel Wire Harness diagrams and wiring info

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by REBEL43, Aug 30, 2018.

  1. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 656

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    No problem at all. So everything is trying to complete a circuit. The main hot and grounds are coming from the battery. The main battery ground needs to go out and connect to the engine block (which bolts to the transmission, starter, etc), the body, and the chassis. The hot side of the battery goes out and connects to the starter, charging system, fuse panel (the fuse panel is then further divided up into switch wiring)...

    so let’s take the ignition switch. It has a main constant battery hot coming into it (power in) and when you turn the key all your doing it sending power from that power in—through the switch and out to different wires. To the fuse panel (to feed rows of fuses) to the coil, and to the starting system. The only reason for power to come out of the switch and through these wires is that it has a path to ground.

    So if you take the starting system: when you turn the key to start, you’re opening up a pathway to the starter (which is grounded to the engine block) so that power comes out of the switch runs into the starter solenoid (which is just a relay to help with all that amp load drawn by the starter) when it gets to the solenoid it closes a set of contacts (hot and ground) and then allows power to flow from the battery to the starter to spin over the engine

    So everything needs a complete circuit to operate properly. Without a path back to your battery ground, there is no power present. If you connect a piece of wire to your battery positive, there actually is no power in that wire, until It has a path to ground (the same battery ground the power is coming from)

    In the case of adding a push button start, all you’re doing is adding another switch (like a valve) to control the flow of electricity. So everything still acts the same way, the power still tries to find it’s ground at the starter solenoid, but it can’t go past the push button until you press it an give it the pathway to the ground.

    That’s why grounds can cause so many weird problems. It doesn’t really know where to go, it’s just trying to complete the circuit (find ground). So if you took a piece of wire, connected it to a battery positive, split it and ran one wire to a bulb in front of the car and one to a bulb in the rear... powered it all up...if the ground in the front was better, the front might only light up, or the front might be brighter and the rear more dim (depending on how much ground the rear bulb was getting). It can do weird things trying to get to where it wants to go. Sorry for the lengthy explanation. I could do this all day...and I do!
     
    firstinsteele likes this.
  2. I guess my private 'conversation' question was unworthy.:(
     
  3. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 656

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    Sorry, just answered it. I don’t do much on forums and I’m still learning to check everything. Like I’ve said on here before, I’m not really a big social media/forum type of guy. Still learning my way around. I’m a lot better with hands on tech and problem solving. You guys just let me know if I miss any questions or anything
     
    Tim and firstinsteele like this.
  4. Me either. Thanks.
     
  5. Tacson
    Joined: Jul 14, 2006
    Posts: 823

    Tacson
    Member

    Thank you Rebel43. The ignition switch detail makes sense. Turning the switch to the Start position completes a multitude of circuits. Makes sense
     
    REBEL43 likes this.
  6. BruceMc
    Joined: Aug 30, 2011
    Posts: 77

    BruceMc
    Member
    from Alaska

    Good info so far. For your 6 volt/8 circuit kits, can you explain what "all sized for 6 Volts" actually involves? What differentiates them from your 12 volt kits?
     
  7. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 656

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    Basically the 6 volt kit uses larger wire gauges than the 12 volt kits, as well as a 6 volt flasher and horn relay. The bus bars inside the fuse panel as also heavier
     
  8. This thread has grown fast - I am usually on the 52-59 Ford Social Group and the moderator from our group gave us a link to this thread; glad he did.

    I am almost finished with a 55 Ford build that included a number of modifications. The build can be viewed here at this link: https://www.hotrodreverend.com/in-progress. All of the entries are searchable with tag words I have listed, and Rebelwire is one of them. I had wired a few cars up in the past, but that was with OEM harnesses from reproduction companies. For those restorations that was all "plug and play" type stuff. When I considered this build of my first car that I had back when I was a teenager, a 1955 Fairlane, I knew I wanted such things as a 12 volt upgrade, emergency flashers, electric wipers, A/C, electric fuel pump, pointless ignition, alternator for better charging at idle, electric cooling fan, etc, etc.

    I looked quite a bit for a harness, examining all of the aftermarket suppliers and even considered purchasing an OEM harness to modify myself. In the end, it all came down to CUSTOMER SERVICE. I read and heard the testimonies but did not fully realize the level until I made a phone call - professional service, courteous speech (there was never any "talking down" to this novice), and very fast answers. The 9+3 was exactly what I needed, and when I begin a new build it will be Rebelwire without a doubt.

    Looking back my major misunderstanding was how to wire up emergency flashers on a car that did not come with the feature. There was some trial and error on my part, but once I spoke with Rebel43 the solution was made available. On my website blog, and in the long blog in the 52-59 Social Group, I relay my mistakes and how solutions were found.

    A big THANK YOU to Rebel! The willingness to start and maintain a thread like this shows commitment to enthusiasts like us.

     
    JeffB2 and REBEL43 like this.
  9. Advance Auto Parts has a similar crimp tool to the blue-handled ones above and works well. It can be adjusted, mine needed to be adjusted. You want something with a positive stop and that's the only way some crimp tools will release. I use that one on lugs with the plastic barrels.
     
  10. pprather
    Joined: Jan 10, 2007
    Posts: 1,261

    pprather
    Member

    Sorry to bring this up, but I think maybe Crazy Steve was saying he would feel more comfortable with a harness built using the 6 volt wire spec's, etc. on 12 volt harnesses. ???


    Phil
     
    Boneyard51 and Atwater Mike like this.
  11. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 656

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    He probably would, or even larger gauges than that. Kinda like using a relay capable of carrying 50, 70, or 80 amps when a 30 amp relay is fine for what you’re doing. Makes you feel better, but it’s just not practical when you’re trying to offer a quality product at a competitive price. The 6 volt kit would be fine to use on a 12 volt car, just swap out the horn relay and flasher. I just feel like some guys still wouldn’t be happy with it
     
    Tim and pprather like this.
  12. I have a blue wire in my dash section with no writing on it. It’s a darker blue. Any ideas what it’s for?
     
  13. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 656

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    I remember catching some blue wires a while back with no print. I thought I got them all, maybe not. They were wiper power. 14ga dark blue, the only other dark blue wires in the dash section are 18ga right front turn, and 16ga radio power, but I’m betting it’s the larger 14ga wiper power. Sorry about that, I thought I got them before any kits went out
     
  14. Thank you, turns out it was the radio wire since I have a labeled wiper and turn signal. No worries. Another question, I’m doing this in a 63 fairlane straight 6 that I have put an alternator and pertronix in, do I need anything on the “i” post of the solenoid?
     
  15. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 656

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    It really depends on how it acts when cranking. I’ve seen some that need it and some that didn’t, but I believe pertronix kits like to see the higher voltage so It really wouldn’t hurt to do it. It would get better voltage when cranking, especially if you have the I post available to use. You’d just run a single wire from the I post over to the + on the coil. Remember to resist the regular coil wire from the switch if you’re not using an aftermarket 12v coil or one that’s internally regulated
     
  16. BruceMc
    Joined: Aug 30, 2011
    Posts: 77

    BruceMc
    Member
    from Alaska

    Thanks. Do you have a build sheet available like you posted earlier for the 12v kits? I couldn't find anything on your website.
     
  17. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 656

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    I don’t, but I can tell you off the top of my head:
    The tail lights are 14ga, rear turn/brake wires are 14ga, fuel sender is 16ga, brake switch power is 14ga, turn flasher is 14ga, radio power is 14ga, dash light wire is 16ga, front park lights are 16ga. The power wire for the horn relay is 12ga, the trigger wire from the horn button and out to the horn is 14ga. I believe that’s it, and the other wires are the same gauge as the 12v kits, since we’re already heavier on some of those. And again the horn relay and flasher is 6v and the bus bars inside the fuse panel are heavier than the 12v kits. Hope that helps
     
    BruceMc likes this.
  18. The37Kid
    Joined: Apr 30, 2004
    Posts: 25,687

    The37Kid
    Member

    I know, I'm the only guy that doesn't get this 6 Volts vs 12 Volts Large gauge wire vs smaller gauge wire. Six fat chicks vs 12 fat chicks and a small vs large tunnel entrance to WalMart. Why is 12 better, and why?


    Bob
     
  19. BruceMc
    Joined: Aug 30, 2011
    Posts: 77

    BruceMc
    Member
    from Alaska

    Think of voltage as pressure. The higher the pressure, the smaller the pipe (wire gauge) you need to move the same amount through it. Or in other words, to get the same flow with 6 volts, you need bigger pipes.
     
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  20. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 656

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    Haha, well...it may not be better exactly, but in today’s market 12v parts will be easier to find and cheaper when you find them. When someone is thinking about switching from 6v to 12, I usually ask how much they’ll use the vehicle, what kind of performance they expect out of the system, basically what kind of car do you want to end up with. With 6v you have a lower supply voltage to work with, think if it as lower pressure available, so you have to use larger conductor (wire) sizes to accomplish the same goal. As you go up in voltage 12v, 24v, etc you’ll notice smaller wire sizes being used, because as voltage goes up, the amp draw goes down, provided the wattage being drawn is the same. Watts/volts=amps so if you take a 55 watt low beam bulb, 2 of them actually, so 110 Watts divided by 12 volts you would get about 9.17 amps. If you took those same 110 Watt bulbs in a 6v system you get about 18.33 amps. So you need to use a larger wire size to carry that increased amp load. Granted the old 6v bulbs are probably going to be fewer wattage, but you can see how it changes. I wouldn’t say that 12v is better, but for ease of use and replacement of components I would say it’s going to be more user friendly. I’ve heard of guys using things like 8 or 9v versions of car batteries to get a little better use and not go too big for the systems, or I think optima is even making a 6v battery with more cranking amps. A 6volt system is fine, as long as you accept the limitations. Just my opinion on the matter
     
  21. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 656

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    Exactly
     
  22. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 656

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    Been building some fan relay kits this morning to take to the Shades of the Past show, and had a few inquiries lately running an electric fan. Here's a quick fan relay wiring diagram if anyone needs it. fan diagram.jpg
    The reason you want to use a relay is the same reason your starter uses a solenoid. The switch and the other wiring involved can't handle all that amp load. So you use a lot smaller amount of amperage to turn on the relay (terminal 86) and just close a set of contacts inside the relay (85 and 86) allowing the heavier amp load to flow through terminals 30 and 87 to run the fan. Same principle with your starter, all you're doing with your ignition switch, push button, however you're sending power... is energizing a smaller set of contacts to allow all the amp load to bypass the switch, fuse panel, etc. Using a lot smaller amount of amps to control a larger amount of amps.
    this video came out fuzzy, but it shows the smaller contacts closing. The instagram video and link is more clear for some reason, same video. https://www.instagram.com/p/BmbOxNigFxn/…



    So when you have power at terminal 86 of the relay, and ground at terminal 85, the contacts close and allow power to flow from terminal 30 to terminal 87 and whatever you're wanting to control with it...whatever has the path to ground
     
  23. Blue One
    Joined: Feb 6, 2010
    Posts: 9,681

    Blue One
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Alberta

    Speaking about fans, do you have any experience with these units and ideas on how to incorporate their operation with a Rebel 9-3 kit ?

    Just wondering as I haven't looked at instructions for either of them yet.
    https://www.centechwire.com/Electronic-Fan-Control-FC-2P.htm
     
  24. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 656

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    I don't have any experience with that particular unit, but, It should work the same as other units. It says it wires into your temp gauge sender wire, or a temp sending unit. That's basically the ground side or trigger of the relay system like a normal setup. I would imagine that the temp control knob is just something like a rheostat, varying the hot or ground when you turn the knob until it sends enough signal to trigger the fans. Some of the other units with a temp probe do the same thing with a little rheostat box that mounts under the dash, where this one is tapping into the temp sender wire.

    Shouldn't be a problem with the 9+3 harness or any other kit. Most setups like this are basically stand alone units that just require a fuse panel hot and pull their main power off of a battery source. I would think it would connect to the battery or battery post on the starter solenoid, and use a keyed or constant source from the fuse panel (to trigger it when the key is on, or let the fans run until the engine cools down after the key is off) then just tap into whatever source you want for the temp setting (temp gauge sender, or temp sender itself). Basically I think it would still wire like the relay setup in the diagram above, but with an adjustable knob, different look, and a little different wire routing. Hope that makes sense.

    Oh yeah, and the fan coming on with the AC, that usually is just a ground signal being sent by a trinary switch to again trigger the ground side of the relay, so the box probably has that built in.
     
  25. It's all about voltage drop. ANY wire will have voltage drop, but how much depends on the wire size/length/load. Change any one of those, and the drop changes. Note that system voltage is not a factor for voltage drop. So for a wire that has a 1V drop at 20 amps, in a 12V system that's a 8% drop, enough to cause some issues. But that same wire at 20 amps in a 6V system, the 1V drop is now 16%, which WILL cause problems, and serious ones at that. The only ways to correct excessive voltage drop without increasing system voltage is to increase wire size, shorten the wire, or reduce the load. As a practical matter, in nearly all cases the only choice is larger wire.

    Pretty much all electrical parts are designed for a 'nominal voltage' but have a 5% +/- 'cushion'. Go over 5%, component life is shortened, sometimes drastically. Go under by more than 5%, you start getting dim lights and paradoxically, this increases the load on circuits with motors and some electronics. For these circuits, the increased amps will cause more heat and shorten switch/relay contact life.

    I wasn't aware that Rebel (or anyone else for that matter) offered 'universal' 6V harnesses. That would address several of my concerns and would be my choice for anything other than a bare-bones car. What's the price difference for those?
     
    REBEL43 likes this.
  26. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 656

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    For our Universal 6v 8 circuit kit the cost is about 275.00 vs 185.00 for the 12v 8 circuit. I saw before where some company was offering a 6v upgrade in a drop down box when ordering, for about a 15.00 difference, but it makes me nervous how they can offer that
     
  27. I'd be suspicious at only $15 too... But $90 seems a bit steep seeing how the advertised price differences between 18, 16, 14, and 12 wire ranges from .03 to .20 per foot assuming a one-size-up upgrade. But I'll admit I don't know what you're paying for wire and realize that there are usually price breaks for quantity, so if you're buying less '6V' wire it will cost more.
     
  28. REBEL43
    Joined: Feb 17, 2007
    Posts: 656

    REBEL43
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from TENNESSEE

    I shouldn't even entertain this, but because I like to be forth coming and truthful... off the top of my head, without digging very far, I came up with about 184ft of wire that gets upgraded to a larger gauge, plus the additional cost of a heavy duty 6v horn relay and 6 volt flasher, the included ring terminals (about 25 of them) which average about .25each and about 2ft of heat shrink. Which roughly came up to about 64.00 in added material, then add in the additional labor time to make the bus bars in the fuse panel heavier and build the kits (which also takes a little longer because using different wires than stock and the added accessories that go out with it) and it isn't hard to understand that 90.00 extra didn't go very far, just cover the added cost of material and labor and didn't leave very much profit. So the short of it is the 6v kit isn't going to make you rich, and don't even begin to add up the extra time for tech assistance on older 6v technology, you'll go in the hole on that
     
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  29. Tacson
    Joined: Jul 14, 2006
    Posts: 823

    Tacson
    Member


    Hello Rebel 43,

    So in very simplistic terms what let's that "little cube", relay HANDLE that amperage load that otherwise would impact the push button start button on my 55' F100 or any normal keyed ignition switch?

    So when I turn on my ignition on with the key and then push the button I am actually sending power to the firewall mounted solenoid which in turn energizes and engages the starter to spin correct? Thanks again for your time and sharing. I have a common "ground" question coming for you.
     
  30. Atwater Mike
    Joined: May 31, 2002
    Posts: 9,632

    Atwater Mike
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    It takes few amperes to activate the solenoid, which is actually a 'relay'.
     
    REBEL43 likes this.

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