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Rear mounted engine thread?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by oldskoolflyer13, Jul 20, 2011.

  1. Weasel
    Joined: Dec 30, 2007
    Posts: 6,693

    Weasel
    Member

    Gary I know we have discussed this idea before - and I know this is a little off topic, but may be of interest to those who want to do something different. Here is a photo of the Alfetta De Dion rear end, complete with Watts linkage, in all it's pristine glory. The bellhousing is shown below. I have toyed with the idea of putting an Alfa engine in a 1933 Willys and found that the Alfa Twin Cam four engine is 1" shorter than the stock Willys 4 banger. Couple that with the minimal bellhousing/flywheelcover of the Alfetta and you should be able to get this engine into the smallest of engine compartments without having to modify the firewall at all - even in some of the tiny Eurocars like Topolinos, Anglias, Hillmans, Lloyds, Flying Standards and Bantams. The clutch being mounted in the transaxle is neat. The only problem is that the gearshift feels rubbery and imprecise and the linkage could certainly do with some improvement. The Alfetta itself is a wonderfully balanced car....

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  2. gnichols
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 11,000

    gnichols
    Member
    from Tampa, FL

    Great pix... my new desktop image for awhile. Did you restore all this? Also, would you happen to know how far apart the shock / coil assemblies are seperated in the donor car? I sure hope this distance is less than the inside width of something like a Model A body.
    2nd question, good year donor car? I've heard the later model I-4s could be as large as 2.5L. My 1970 coupe only had 1300cc! Thanx for the info, Gary
     
  3. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    Do not forget that for a car such as being discussed here, the coil overs can be replaced with an early Ford cross leaf spring and shocks. So that part that shows will look almost "Traditional"
     
  4. With the Alfetta-type setup in a rear engine application, you won't be saving much space over just running a Merc trans (or whatever) and banjo axle. I wouldn't get hung up on that unit too much (for a "HAMB" car) because you can get traditional parts that will do the same job.

    The real space saving transaxle would be the McKee or Hewland (or Audi) type, but no way you're gonna get any "trad cred" with one of those in back...

    Good point about the spring, Rich! Might even eliminate the need for a Watts link or Panhard bar...
     
  5. wisdonm
    Joined: Jun 20, 2011
    Posts: 444

    wisdonm
    Member

    You guys keep bypassing the '69 and later Corvair transaxle. It is based on a Saganaw 4-speed, can be beefed up, saves space, period correct, and cheap. It has the same size internal gears as the Saginaws that came behind the big block V-8's. Also, the post '66 differentials from the factory only had 3.27:1, 3.55:1 and the Yenko 3.89:1 ring and pinions. (some early model transmissions had the 3.08:1 ratio.) There are aftermarket (Richmond) 4.11:1 R&P's in two different versions, standard and HD
     
  6. Technically the OP was talking about a mid-engine configuration. You would have to flip the Corvair transaxle over to use it that way. (THis has been done for many years with Porsche transaxles.)
     
  7. Bad Daddy
    Joined: Nov 13, 2010
    Posts: 829

    Bad Daddy
    Member

    Here's one for ya. . .

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    It's running a front drive NorthStar V8 from a Caddy.
     
  8. Gomes
    Joined: Jun 23, 2006
    Posts: 171

    Gomes
    Member

    Damm that looks like alot of work, Nice job very inspiring
     
  9. wisdonm
    Joined: Jun 20, 2011
    Posts: 444

    wisdonm
    Member

    Good point exwestracer. The Tempest, CorV-8, and Deserter GT all used the Corvair transaxle in a mid-engine position. I don't remember if the tranny or just the ring gear was flipped.
     
  10. Weasel
    Joined: Dec 30, 2007
    Posts: 6,693

    Weasel
    Member

    This was built by Pete Aardema in San Diego and ran around in primer for so many years that it was a standing joke "When ya gonna paint that old jalopy Pete?". If you dont know Pete, he is the guy who puts cammer heads on anything that has pistons - Porsche 928 4 cam heads on a chevy, Suzuki head on a banger, etc.
     
  11. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    Neither..... Corvair engines rotated the "wrong" way so when driven from the opposite end with conventional rotation everything worked as is. The Tempest and the Crown V-8 conversion had an engine-tans-differential layout. Because most engines rotate the opposite direction of the one in the Corvair, it is possible to drive a Corvair transaxle from the normal input side with a "normal" engine, then just rotate the asssemjbly so the engine is in front. That makes the car go down the road in the correct direction. Doing that causes transmission end trust in the opposite direction, and drives the ring gear on the back side of the teeth, but I have seen several installations where that has been done successfully. That gives you better packaging with an engine-differential-trans behind the diff layout. In the Corvair configuration there is a long shaft that goes past the diff to connect the engine to the trans. With enough power that shaft is a weak point. At one time you could buy stronger ones. With the Tempest and Crown set-up a standard Saginaw input shaft/gear was installed in place of the cap(Corvair), or splined input(Tempest), at the forward facing end of the trans.

    Other transaxle options are the ZF, commonly found in the Pantera engine-diff-trans, or the stronger/newer/better Porsche transaxle that is replacing the ZF in many uses. Newer Corvettes have a transaxle, but like the Alfetta and other front engine rear drive transaxles, it has the longer engine-trans-differential layout.
     
  12. QB409
    Joined: May 27, 2009
    Posts: 81

    QB409
    Member

    Ned,
    I may be missing your point here, I have read the thread and can't see how Nasty1's car is not relevant? He is using a reverse rotation 327 Chev in a Corvair, and having seen the car , I know that he has a load of engineering advice that may help some members with install in other applications. His current project is a 425HP 409 in a Corvair, also rear mount. Not being disrespectful, just wouldn't want to see a wealth of tech info get tossed because his wheels are not 'HAMB friendly"?
    Marc
     
  13. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 4,263

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    I was merely suggesting a more relevant thread on the HAMB: of which there are several. At the time of Nasty1's post the thread had been mainly about early mid-engined lakes cars, not mid/rear-engined installations in general; and that created the impression that he had read no more than the thread title before posting - though that may be a wrong impression.

    Of course the discussion did eventually come round to Corvair transaxles and issues of engine rotation. I hope I didn't offend: I tried hard not to. (Note that I said "some might say" the wheels aren't HAMB-friendly. They don't offend me; I rather like the way they vaguely resemble BMW wheels.)
     
  14. Sorry, my mistake on flipping the 'vair box. I would be concerned about running the R&P backward in a performance application though...

    This is the one that most of the mid-engine supercar replica builders are using. From a V8 Audi. Again kind of O/T, but as long as we're going there...
    [​IMG]
     
  15. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    It would be one hell of a lot slicker than anything they ran in '53. I love it.
     
  16. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    I love that Audi trans axle. Which way is my car going to go if I turn it around and put the engine in front of it?
     
  17. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    It is a front wheel drive transaxle for a north/south engine. With the engine in front of the transaxle it is in the correct orientation. I'm pretty sure Audi engines rotate in the conventional direction, but I don't remember that for sure. Not as strong as a ZF or recent issue Porsche transaxle, but should be adequate for what the OP wants to do.
     
  18. gnichols
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 11,000

    gnichols
    Member
    from Tampa, FL

    Sorry for my OT interest in front engines and rear transaxles earlier. Ifn I was really doing a rear engine deal I'd think mid-engine would be best. So, along those lines how about something Porsche 914-ish? Fierro? MR2? Being a died in the wool cheap date, I'd use something like this, a subaru style conversion used for replica Porsches. I understand there are a variety of transaxles and adapter bellhousings, etc. available for these cars, VW bus transaxles, etc in the sports car world and dune buggies? Gary

    I like the Subaru deal, cheap power, low maintenance costs.
    http://www.specialtyauto.com/PORSCHE.htm
     
  19. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    Al. My brother had one of those 5 cylinder Audi's and as I remember the engine was pretty conventionally mounted, but backward so that the flywheel pointed forward toward the FWD trans axle. But it has been a while since I saw that car. Hard to imagine the engine hanging out front like a Saab Sonnet. This looks like pretty much the same deal. So in a rear wheel drive car the trans axle would need to be flopped upside down or spun 180 degrees. I guess I'll have to sit down with a pencil and paper and start drawing circles.
     
  20. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 4,263

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    No, Audis have always had the engines slung out ahead of the front wheels. That's why the VW EA827 engine family is so short: the original 1300/1500 version had to fit in the Audi 80's front overhang, with the radiator beside it. To achieve that they did things like a side-mounted water pump, etc. and the bore spacing is tight. It was an undersquare approach from very early. Length-wise everything goes for an extremely compact package.

    Here's an example of the original installation:
    [​IMG]

    That's also why taking drive out the back of the transaxle for the Quattro was so easy: just a centre diff on the end of a hollow output shaft, with a shaft inside it driving forwards to the front diff. (And I know the EA827 in my DD turns the conventional direction. That's clear enough if you consider the transverse transaxle in that, which puts the pulley end of the engine on the right.)
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2011
  21. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    I guess it's a 5 speed with 5th overdrive? How much do you think they go for? What about the old 5 cylinder trans. You don't really transmit a lot of torque on the salt. At least I don't. I gotta get to pick a part and look at Audi's. I like that transmission.
     
  22. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 4,263

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    They're all-indirect, most have overdrive 5th with 4th slightly over 1:1; some have overdrive 4th, too.

    There's a link to a spreadsheet on this page.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2011
  23. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    Didn't work for me, but I am sure I can find something with a search. Thanks
     
  24. Weasel
    Joined: Dec 30, 2007
    Posts: 6,693

    Weasel
    Member

  25. Weasel
    Joined: Dec 30, 2007
    Posts: 6,693

    Weasel
    Member

  26. Weasel
    Joined: Dec 30, 2007
    Posts: 6,693

    Weasel
    Member

  27. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 4,263

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    Try it now. Or try this one.
     
  28. RichFox
    Joined: Dec 3, 2006
    Posts: 10,020

    RichFox
    Member Emeritus

    This is really interesting. Two friends of mine are building a rear engine modified roadster. I have run my engine in Jack's streamliner before and may run it in the roadster. They plan on solid mount and a much different transmission deal. I sent Wayn the picture of the Audi trans and he likes it as much as I do. I wish they were laying around for $45. After SpeedWeek we will have to hit Hayward and the junk yards.
     
  29. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    +1 If there were any modern ones that were otherwise I have not seen them.
     
  30. scootermcrad
    Joined: Sep 20, 2005
    Posts: 12,375

    scootermcrad
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

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