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Rear mounted engine thread?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by oldskoolflyer13, Jul 20, 2011.

  1. oldskoolflyer13
    Joined: Mar 29, 2009
    Posts: 274

    oldskoolflyer13
    Member

    Any rough idea's what the length would be starting at the timing gear of combined 4banger, 39 trans, adapter, and coupling to center axle (also 39)....?
     
  2. Keep in mind folks, the Carrillo and Waite roadsters, the Original Goldenrod streamliner, etc were all constructed to to very fast in a straight line, on a relatively smooth chunk of Salt. I've been involved with 2 out of those 3, and can say that I would never consider their setups useable on a street driven car.
    Perfect for Bonneville, not so much for Main Street USA.
     
  3. If you want to make it street friendly, and keep the design period correct, a DeDion rear is the answer. They've been around since 1903, and just because it wasn't done for Bonneville doesn't mean it couldn't have been... That lets you keep the engine and trans on the chassis where it belongs.

    Here's a 39 Alfa racer with the De Dion rear. We used the SCOT blowers, why not the suspension?
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Shit...thought I copied the smaller pic. Sorry.
     
  5. Rootie Kazoootie
    Joined: Nov 27, 2006
    Posts: 8,134

    Rootie Kazoootie
    Member
    from Colorado

    Aside from serious unsprung weight, I wonder what kind of sloshing/harmonics would be going on inside the fuel bowls?
     

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  6. Weasel
    Joined: Dec 30, 2007
    Posts: 6,693

    Weasel
    Member

    Alfa Romeos used de Dion rear ends right through the 1980s on the Alfetta with front engine and rear mounted transaxle and inboard mounted disc brakes. I have a transaxle in the back of my shed - still a few around. You can get them for next to nothing just look for a 1971 and up Alfetta, or Alfa 33 and 75. They are light weight and lend themselves well to early roadsters as the width of the rear end is narrow around 53" hub to hub as I recall.

    [​IMG]
     
  7. Weasel
    Joined: Dec 30, 2007
    Posts: 6,693

    Weasel
    Member

    Not what the OP probably expected, but this is something that has been in my head since 1977. Started out with a Uracco V8 in a Model A roadster in 1978 but that fell by the wayside, then graduated to this idea ca. 2003. Yes it will fit - just and yes it is do-able without altering a single thing on the original body, without modifying the stock seat location and leaving it stock looking except for stance, wheels and tires....


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  8. Weasel
    Joined: Dec 30, 2007
    Posts: 6,693

    Weasel
    Member

    All of this was inspired by the lengthened Model A roadster Russ Meeks built for John Corno but I didn't want to modify an original body and figured that a sidewinder would be just the ticket....

    [​IMG]
     
  9. More Engine-Uity
     
  10. Where did you get a Lamborghini engine? Pull-a-part?:confused:
     
  11. Weasel
    Joined: Dec 30, 2007
    Posts: 6,693

    Weasel
    Member

    It had been sitting in a warehouse, fully professionally rebuilt Miura SV spec, five miles from my home....
     
  12. wisdonm
    Joined: Jun 20, 2011
    Posts: 444

    wisdonm
    Member

    For street use, the best tranny and true independent rear suspension would be a '69 Corvair. Like so many GM cars, when they finally got it right, they killed it.

    The trans would be behind the axle line, which would help shorten the axle line to the front of the engine.

    I successfully autocrossed a 4 banger swing axled Tempest LeMans. Just add a camber compensator bar and go. GM refused to install them at the factory because the would cost about $5 per car.
     
  13. That...is absolutely bad ass. HAMB friendly or not!
    Maybe when I get my Can-Am inspired monocoque Deuce built we can go for a "WTF" cruise!:rolleyes:
     
  14. Back to the DeDion hijack(?)... A friend in CA built one using BMW hub assemblies and a piece of muffler tubing. Had it in a Buick straight 8 powered "special" that he drove across the US without a single hiccup...

    It would work fine with an IRS banjo or quickchange...
     
  15. Dan Timberlake
    Joined: Apr 28, 2010
    Posts: 1,321

    Dan Timberlake
    Member

    swing axles by themselves "do things" in corners, notably when the driver gets off the gas.
    Denis Jenkinson was an automotive journalist who logged many miles as Stirling Moss' copilot. Moss gave Mercedes many of their race victories over the years. I think they gave Moss a new SL every year for decades. In The Racing Driver Jenkinson says the 300 SL was "a wicked and vicious oversteering monster."

    Throw in a severe rearward weight bias as come free with a rear mounted engine (as opposed to mid-engine) and frisky cornering or accident evasion can get real tricky. I have had, and liked, early ( swing axle) and late (real IRS) Corvairs and like how they handled. I did something stupid (abrupt steering motion and getting off the gas) and got an early Corvair Spyder sideways in traffic with a bunch of buddies aboard in Flint Michigan traffic in 1968.

    Here is a link that wraps all rear engine cars in a lump.
    http://www.time.com/time/specials/2007/article/0,28804,1658545_1658498_1657833,00.html
    Note the TATRA anecdotal story about handling. Most of the TATRA sites mention the Nazi "ban" based on the car's handling.
    I consider Jay Leno an open minded enthusiast, and here is what he says about his aluminum air cooled hemi powered Tatra. "I drive it swiftly, but I'm aware of its handling characteristics, and I don't lift off the throttle in a corner. It's like driving an early Porsche 356, with that car's tendency for the rear end to step out...,"
    http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/extra...cruiser-of-the-30s---article/index.php?page=2
     
  16. Dan Timberlake
    Joined: Apr 28, 2010
    Posts: 1,321

    Dan Timberlake
    Member

    The first IROC was run in 1974 by racing champions from various types of racing driving identical Penske prepared Porsche 911s ( rear engine, NOT swing axle IRS) at Riverside and Daytona's road course. It took a while for some of the USAC and NASCAR guys to "get used to" the Porsche handling. Supposedly the great Bobby Allison spun his Porsche so hard and fast it ejected all of the car's glass.

    Next year the cars were Camaros, and Speedway events.
    Allison won IROC VII.
     
  17. gas pumper
    Joined: Aug 13, 2007
    Posts: 2,956

    gas pumper
    Member

    I got nothing on the rear engine thing.

    But ECTA is looking like a move to an ex-DHL air strip in Ohio. Half way between Columbus and Cinncinati. Not far off the Interstate that joins them.

    This is an interesting concept, good luck with the car.
     
  18. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 4,251

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    That's what I've been saying ...
     
  19. ...and I was agreeing with you! :D

    Still working on the "remote" springs and anti-roll system, Dawie?

    FYI Dan Timberlake...the DeDion does not have to be a swing axle, in fact now that I think about it, it can't use swing axles...
     
  20. Ned Ludd
    Joined: May 15, 2009
    Posts: 4,251

    Ned Ludd
    Member

    Hi Ray. I've actually got something quite exciting lined up, something someone has been developing locally. The guy's got a stock-looking Land Rover handling like a go-kart. I might PM you about it when the time comes.
     
  21. Dan Timberlake
    Joined: Apr 28, 2010
    Posts: 1,321

    Dan Timberlake
    Member

    =======================================

    Hi Exwestracer,

    I did not mean to suggest any of my references applied to DeDion .
    Sorry for any confusion.

    Dan T
     
  22. gnichols
    Joined: Mar 6, 2008
    Posts: 10,989

    gnichols
    Member
    from Tampa, FL

    Weasel,
    I've mentioned this before here on similar threads, but a little, fenderless roadster based on this rear suspension and the matching donor I-4 Alfa DOHC motor is on my short list of future builds. And.. with no big bellhousing or tranny in the front, I think the firewall, toe boards and drive shaft tunnel can be kept pretty small. It may even turn out to be a narrowed, single seater if I can get a body on it that would look good with the rear coil overs. Time will tell, Gary

    This car has IRS! Gary
     

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  23. CutawayAl
    Joined: Aug 3, 2009
    Posts: 2,144

    CutawayAl
    Member
    from MI

    The engine-trans-diff layout takes up more length in the car than using a transaxle that permits an engine-diff-trans layout. That set-up puts the trans behind the rear axle.
     
  24. There was a "hot-rodder" solution to the problem, albeit a little later than the OP was going for. Bob McKee built a number of these quickchange-based transaxles for USRRC and Can-Am racing, as an alternative to the expensive Hewland boxes.

    Yes that is a Muncie 4 speed turned upside down (135deg I believe).
     

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  25. oldskoolflyer13
    Joined: Mar 29, 2009
    Posts: 274

    oldskoolflyer13
    Member

    I guess this would be a good time to ask for pics of a rear engine roadster with a de Dion? Keep in mind that disc brakes.....are too new....what other options are their? And what would be involved in mating a "A" or "B" block banger to this setup?
     
  26. Probably never happened...:p

    Brakes can be whatever and wherever you want them, inboard or outboard. If you're thinking inboard, see the inboard drum setup above. Outboard drums would likely be easiest. Uprights are fixed to the DeDion beam, so you can literally use anything. The Chevy S10 4WD front hubs are a bolt in assembly, as are many others.

    As far as mating the banger to it, if you are going the traditional engine, trans, diff layout you just mate engine to trans with whatever adaptor is needed, and couple the trans to the diff with a ujoint. A banjo or quickchange would have the right look obviously, but any IRS diff will work.
     
  27. oldskoolflyer13
    Joined: Mar 29, 2009
    Posts: 274

    oldskoolflyer13
    Member

    Was referring to the de Dion transaxle to banger. Are all of these rear ends trans axles, or are some of them just a swing axle?
     
  28. The DeDion is a suspension design. Some of them used transaxles, but most were just a diff. A transaxle has the transmission built in. As Cutaway Al mentioned above it saves space. Transaxles were very rare in early hot-rodding, almost non-existent... Your earlier rear engine roadster example uses a typical transmission coupled to a diff, and that is the direction I figured you would want to go. You can use the DeDion design either way. If you want to adapt the Alfa Romeo transaxle Gnichols posted above, you just need a coupler to the back of your crankshaft. The clutch and everything else is contained in the transaxle itself. None of these were old enough for the "right look", however.

    Keep in mind the term "swing axle" applies to the outboard end of an independent rear suspension. If there is no outer ujoint, then the the axle (and tire) "swings" through an arc as the suspension moves.
     
  29. oldskoolflyer13
    Joined: Mar 29, 2009
    Posts: 274

    oldskoolflyer13
    Member

    How much side skip would I be looking at using a trailing arm/swing arm set-up with live axle?
     
  30. oldskoolflyer13
    Joined: Mar 29, 2009
    Posts: 274

    oldskoolflyer13
    Member

    Thats what I was thinking as well.....I guess I was kinda thrown for a loop for a second after doing a google search it showed transaxles....and I was not about that lol.
     

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