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Re-Stamping VIN Numbers...or beating dead horses...you decide!?!

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by crazycasey, Aug 25, 2011.

  1. This is where I thought I'd be ok originally, so long as I kept the original frame. But I don't know...this seems a very GREY area!

    Just to keep this "on task", so that it's not a pissing contest and a waste of time, perhaps I need to uncover as much information as I can in an effort to figure out how the Blue Tag process works. If it's "just that easy", then this could be really helpful info to a lot of HAMB'ers.
     
  2. oldcarfart
    Joined: Apr 12, 2005
    Posts: 1,436

    oldcarfart
    Member

    You repaired the frame by replacing it, as you would an engine, putting a VIN number on there creates an issue, just keep bill of sale for frame.
     
  3. In my direct experience it is anything but simple. But just for sh!ts and giggles I will go in tomorrow and see what kind of response I get.
     
  4. Okay, just trying to answer this part of the question. The portion of text you have in BOLD refers to stamping any serial number to a vehicle which was NOT assigned to the vehicle by "the department". That means Department of motor vehicles or "the department".

    This does not mean that YOU can stamp the VIN unless YOU are "the department".

    I am very close to this right now and you should get and assigned number IMHO.

    And to all you out of Californians..... It really is a ClusterPhuque dealing with "the department"!

    Seriously, good luck with this.
     
  5. years back a customer had a problem with vin # on a '61 jeep pickup, motor vehicle inspector said he needed to see two vins [body and frame]. on these jeeps the only vin was on a tag screwed to the radiator support, after calls to chrysler/jeep archives and multiple jeep dealers asking for the old time mechanics about where the second number was we were told there was only the one tag on the radiator. the dmv didn't believe us and did not want to call chrysler, so we "found" the numbers near the steering box. inspector responce was "ok, now i know where to look on the next one"
     
  6. Just asked my friend with the Vehicle Registration Service about Blue Tags, and it was her opinion that they dramatically lowered the resale value of the car, much in the same way as a Salvaged Title.

    Still, that idea seems like it's just based on misinformation (not on her part, but on the part of the used car market in general), since Model A's on Deuce rails always seem to fetch big bucks, and a Blue Tag is essentially the only way to LEGALLY register one. I wonder how many of those Deuce framed A's are running around with Model A VIN's stamped on them.

    Still, resale value isn't a HUGE concern on this one...
     
  7. Your friend is right, but more about newer O/T cars. I mean, why would any modern car have lost a vin and needed one assigned? Wrecked, stolen and recovered come to mind and that would lower the value.

    But a 30 on 32 rails is a different animal don't you think?

    Another way to look at it. A Caddy CTV with an assigned plate and a new frame; Hmmmmmm?
    A 30A on 32 rails; Right on!
     
  8. You will NOT own both the re-framed car and the original frame forever; as in, "you can't take it with you". You now have TWO frames with identical ID numbers stamped into them. Yeah, you restamped your replacement frame, but that original frame will end up as another hot rod build by someone, somewhere down the line. He goes to title this frame, and voila! it comes back as a number already taken by your reframed car! So, this little problem is now a BIG problem, as everyone involved now tries to sort this situation out. You won't care, because you are dead, or had to sell out, or whatever. THEN what? Think about this before you think about stamping that repop frame with your numbers. Yeah, you have the title, but that will mean little.

    Simply tell your state AND your insurance company that you have a NEW frame and what you want to do. Broken and rusted frames are replaced legally every day by owners, body and resto shops, and so on. If they say NO about restamping, then DON'T DO IT! They may have you get a builder's title, or whatever your state calls it, but then, if you wreck the car, you are covered in every way. If you try to be sneaky about things, you will get bit in the ass...HARD.
     
  9. Oh, I get it...you must actually be deceased and living in Heaven. I hate to be the one to tell you this terrible news, but at the same time I am so excited to know that the DMV's are so great in Heaven. Gives new meaning to that Jesus Built My Hot Rod song.

    Anyway, more seriously...that sounds FANTASTIC!!! It is definitely NOWHERE like that in California, and for the record I am always VERY polite when I go in there.
     
  10. iammarvin
    Joined: Oct 7, 2009
    Posts: 1,196

    iammarvin
    BANNED
    from Tulare, Ca

    CrazyC.....in the same boat....junk frame, engine I will not use, everything else in the garage. Good renewed ( kinda ) threwd.
     
  11. Well...I will report back after the DMV tomorrow. Not holding my breathe though. :rolleyes:
     
  12. seventhirteen
    Joined: Sep 21, 2009
    Posts: 721

    seventhirteen
    Member
    from dago, ca

    I would agree a blue tag is less desirable than original numbers, but I wouldn't put it in the same de-value as a salvage title or even close when it comes to old cars and motorcycles.

    the car will still be titled as a 1931 Ford model A and be fully legit
     
  13. tucknroll
    Joined: Mar 10, 2007
    Posts: 100

    tucknroll
    Member
    from iowa

    my understanding is the body vin tag is more important than the frame vin. reason being the frame is considered a servicable part. example car was wrecked and frame was damaged . replaced with a good frame or new frame at the time back in the day with no stampings at all. they are still changing frames on wrecked vehicles today. [how many have actually checked your frames vin# for matching?] but i would still contact dmv to have everything in order. i would be more worried about a insurance claim than the lawman when it come to vin# matching. as stated you have'nt done anything wrong ---yet
     
  14. Hot Rods Ta Hell
    Joined: Apr 20, 2008
    Posts: 4,670

    Hot Rods Ta Hell
    Member

    An A body on a 32 frame. Doesn't Ca. consider the chassis year as the year model? Hence, it should be titled as a 32?
     
  15. iammarvin
    Joined: Oct 7, 2009
    Posts: 1,196

    iammarvin
    BANNED
    from Tulare, Ca

    Wow......What to do with a rpu model a ona 32 frame?
     
  16. Swifster
    Joined: Dec 16, 2006
    Posts: 1,455

    Swifster
    Member

    The owner asked me to comment on this. If this were my car, to my way of thinking, a frame is a part like any other. It's a service part. I put a used frame under a '64 Corvette recently due to collision damage.

    On Model A's and Model B's, the serial numbers are stamped on the frame. This is similar to early Mustangs, Falcons, Fairlanes, etc., where the serial number is stamped into the wheelhouse. Those frame numbers, as well as those stamped into the engine block are the ID numbers and the match the title (or should).

    Anyways, if the frame and title match, I would stamp those numbers into the same place(s) they are stamped on the 'A' frame. I would also CUT the stamped numbers off of the original frame, grind the edges really nice and weld this plate to the side of the rail where they would be visible. In otherwords, ahead of the cowl. Get pictures of both cutting the frame and rewelding the plate.

    Laws are to prevent fraud. If the car is basically the same, it's not fraud.

    Now, I am not a lawyer, and I'm not DMV employee. I would also check with a law enforcement officer you know (or a friend of a friend) and just talk in general terms. The number will be stamped in the factory location and the original number will be welded to the frame. If the engine is original to the car and the serial number matches that as well, keep the engine.
     
  17. Swifster, thanks for weighing in. This sure does seem like sound reasoning.

    You know, I studied Business Law for a little while in college, and there is always a legal defense to be had in what is known as the "reasonable person standard". Essentially, if you could argue that a reasonable person would act in a certain way based upon their understanding of the way a particular law was written, then they are innocent of any wrong doing, and just because a DMV official, or even a Police Officer tells you that you have to do something a certain way DOES NOT mean that that is the final word.

    After reading the VC section I referenced earlier, I think one could reasonably stamp the VIN number from their title onto a replacement part on the same car. The number on my title IS the number "issued by the department" so far as I can tell.

    Swifster, is it safe to say that if I followed (and documented) the procedure you've outlined that it would satisfy an adjuster if I ever needed to make an insurance claim?
     
  18. Just my experience with a Blue Tag years ago.

    Old 4WD pickup purchased in Oregon w/ a signed OR title but not in my name. I didn't think to check VIN since my father-in-law bought the truck new. I drive it home to SoCal. and head to the DMV.

    Inspection needed on out of state vehicles.

    Truck had been wrecked and body tag is missing from the door jamb due to bodywork (Bondo). Engine and trans had been replaced years ago, so no matching numbers there. Frame number was missing a prefix letter that was on the title. (the letter indicated 4WD)

    Inspector looks at the frame number and asks me what I know. I tell him the story. He says OK and gets out the wire wheel to remove paint since the Blue Tag has to be affixed to bare steel.

    He heads for the door jamb where the original tag was. I tell him there's Bondo in there, that's why it doesn't have a VIN tag. He says it needs to be "THERE".... He grinds some Bondo out then asks where there's no Bondo. I point to a spot I like. He peels the paint, sticks the Blue Tag on and stamps it with the VIN number on the Oregon title.
     
  19. 29AVEE8
    Joined: Jun 28, 2008
    Posts: 1,384

    29AVEE8
    Member


    Anxiously awaiting the result of your DMV visit.
     
  20. This is direct from an auto theft detective who worked 10+ years in auto theft in California;
    It is illegal to remove, re-stamp, replace, or alter the vin # of a motor vehicle.....Should an altered vin # be encountered (which includes method of attachment) at best the tag is seized or the numbers are removed, and a state tag will be placed on the vehicle in place of the original. Should the vehicle not have a secondary #, to authenticate its identity, or some other form or absolute identity, the vehicle will be crushed. Also, if its impounded (dead on freeway, etc.) the impounding CHP Trooper will check the vin- if he doesn't like what he's found...it's the state's until you satisfy them it's not stolen.
    Only the original Manufacturer can stamp an Existing VIN number into a New replacement frame. Harley Davidson does this by having you send in the neck portion of the old frame with the VIN numbers and then builds you a new frame with that VIN number stamped in it.
    All I'm doing is pointing out what the law states. not what you may or may not get away with.
     
  21. Ok...so in an effort to not lose my sanity with a trip to the DMV, I decided my time would be better spent with a visit to the CHP. Ultimately, I will have to deal with the DMV, but I figured that California Highway Patrol Officers are more highly paid, and probably more intelligent. Hopefully I am not offending any HAMB'ers that just happen to be DMV employees.

    Furthermore, I decided that since I have a fairly complete and stock Model A at this point, that it would be better to seek my California Blue Tag with the car in this condition, rather than try and put a deuce frame underneath it and then get turned away, or treated like a criminal (after reading hotroddon's post I'd be afraid to take them a car with NO Vin number). Anyway, this is a detailed description of my VERY brief conversation with the officer:

    First, I explained to the officer that I had a 1931 Ford Model A, purchased from the previous owner with a Pink Slip, transferred into my name, and currently registered here in California.

    I asked the officer if he was familiar with Model A's, and he said he was not, so I told him that the Model A came stamped with it's VIN number in two places, one on the engine, and one on the frame, which is directly under the body mount, so that it can only be seen with the body removed from the frame.

    I then explained to the officer that the number on my engine is extremely rusty and completely illegible. I explained that the number on the frame is also in very poor shape, but that it can be made out, just barely.

    I explained that my intentions were to restore the vehicle, but that I was worried that, even with proper protection, the VIN could be lost forever in my attempts to restore the car, and that once the body was set back on the frame, there would be no visible number by which an officer or insurance agent could identify the car were there ever a need, without removing the cars body from the frame (I also explained that this procedure was fairly involved and would take several hours in a shop with a compliment of specialized tools).

    Lastly, I told the officer that I had read about a "CHP Blue Tag" that could be issued, if my VIN numbers were missing or illegible, and asked if that was something that I could bring my car in voluntarily to have assigned to me.

    The officer said that the CHP does issue "Blue Tags" under very special circumstances, but that it was his opinion that my situation did not meet those circumstances. Still, he offered to send an email to his superior officer, to validate his appraisal of the situation. I am patiently awaiting the response from that officer.

    If I do not get some result from this visit to the CHP, then I will try the DMV, as a last resort.

    Thanks for your patience, and I hope that something informative can come from this effort.

    Casey
     
  22. Unfortunately not all CHP offices have any one that knows what they are talking about. Down here the Westminster office has a guy that pretty much specializes in it along with VIN verification
     
  23. Might be worth a trip down there...for the sake of some good information on the HAMB, you wouldn't wanna maybe talk to him about my situation would 'ya...

    ***wink wink nudge nudge***
     
  24. While we are waiting for the CHP's resonse...

    I had somebody tell me that the "Blue Tag" will have the year in which it was issued affixed to the title, as well as the year model of the vehicle. They said that by getting a "Blue Tag" I'd be opening myself up to Smog Check Requirements for a 2011 model vehicle!?! I know this can be the situation with a Special Construction title, but thought that a "Blue Tag" was totally different. Anybody know if there is any truth to this rumor?
     
  25. So, I spoke with the CHP again today. Not only were they very nice, but they also gave me a lot of useful information, although unfortunately there was no direct solution offered to my problem.

    One thing that was said that I found extremely interesting was that it IS NOT illegal to stamp your VIN number on other parts of your vehicle, so long as the original VIN number is present and unaltered. They recommended that if you do this, you should take several pictures of the original VIN to document the fact that you are merely adding identification points, and not altering the original number.

    Unfortunately, they also said that if my original number WAS visible, that they would NOT issue a California "Blue Tag", simply because it WAS NOT necessary. Furthermore, they said that if the VIN were no longer present on the vehicle, that they would have to issue a Special Construction title, to which they added that "then I'd be screwed". So at least they "get it".

    So now what to do?

    I have a long-time friend who is a detective that told me I should just stamp my current number into my new frame, and then save the old frame in case I ever got into some sort of trouble. He said that I would technically be operating in a grey-area of the law, but that I wasn't trying to commit fraud or anything like that, so it'd probably be ok.

    All signs seem to point towards stamping the current VIN into the new frame.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2011
  26. billthx138
    Joined: Oct 17, 2009
    Posts: 401

    billthx138
    Member

    Two words......Plausible Deniability, meaning "thats the way I bought It!!!"
     
    Retson the Racer likes this.
  27. dv8
    Joined: Apr 15, 2001
    Posts: 1,097

    dv8
    Member

    Exactly what a few of us have been saying......

    Those laws are there to prosecute auto thieves....not jam up every car guy trying to pay all his fees and get his car on the road. Can they be used against the average car guy? You bet! Will they? Probably not. If that scares anyone....there is always woodcarving, or needle point...both with the potential for "Danger", but not prosecution.
     
  28. "T'RANTULA"
    Joined: Aug 6, 2011
    Posts: 661

    "T'RANTULA"
    Member
    from Ohio

    WOW, my 55 has 2 vin numbers on the frame, the 40 ford vin and the 55 chevy vin, and when i went to the BMV to get a title they said i have to file a "friendly suit" and i told them i had 2 vins and they got the manager. He told me to use what ever vin i wanted as long as it matched the car. I picked the 55 vin. worked out just fine.
     
  29. flatoutflyin
    Joined: Jun 16, 2010
    Posts: 385

    flatoutflyin
    Member

    To my knowledge, this is the situation in Ohio as well. I've dealt with salvage vehicles, and had over 500 hundred VIN inspections done here. The OSHP is extremely thorough and knowledgeable when it comes to VINs. I recently brought a '32 Ford roadster to Ohio from Georgia. The original vin was barely discernible, and it was tempting to simply stamp over it. I talked with a trooper I know who does inspections, and his answer was the same as stated in the quote - don't touch it! He said they most certainly would remove, or cut the body to locate concealed or partial VINs, and if they found evidence of altering or tampering, that I would have to appear before a judge. I could potentially lose the car, and involve the previous sellers in criminal and civil litigation. The sleeping dog may slumber for years, but he may still bite when awakened. The Vin was OK with Ohio, and I'd already had the state of Georgia sign off on the number with a letter of verification. Don't put all your hard work and money at risk, just do it legally and don't worry.
     
  30. LOW LID DUDE
    Joined: Aug 16, 2007
    Posts: 1,223

    LOW LID DUDE
    Member
    from Colorado

    here in Denver to register my 32 after going through all the red tape bs they told me I had to have Colorado State patrol inspect the car and vin #.prior to this I stamped the # on my ( NEW )frame to match the title. The cop took one quick look at it turned to me and said you did a nice job putting the # on a new frame,is it a TCI frame? He said you committed fraud by doing this. I could impound the 32 on the spot. He knew his shit about hot rods, I didn't fool him at all. He made me go through more red tape and they had to assign a new # and they riveted a new tag on the door jamb. The cop is retired now and we are good friends today. Be careful screwing with vin #s.
     

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