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Rambler/AMC questions

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 56oldsDarrin, Nov 11, 2009.

  1. 56oldsDarrin
    Joined: May 9, 2009
    Posts: 396

    56oldsDarrin
    Member

    My 13 year old Son just acquired a 1964 rambler classic(2 door hardtop) but the 287 v8 seems to be stuck and the trans was bad when it was parked 10 years ago.
    Would a newer AMC 304 and its transmission bolt in?
    I may have a line on a rambler 327 but It would need rebuilt too.
    He really wants to keep it all(or mostly) AMC,He flat out said "No" to me even suggesting chevrolet power.
    Money, of course is an object.
     
  2. HeyyCharger
    Joined: Dec 8, 2008
    Posts: 941

    HeyyCharger
    Member

    Send Brootal a PM.

    He's a rambler man.

    This is his car.........

    HC.
     

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  3. shmoozo
    Joined: Aug 14, 2007
    Posts: 672

    shmoozo
    Member
    from Media, PA

    The 287 and the 327 are of the same generation of AMC V8s so I expect the 327 would bolt in fairly easily.

    The 304 is 2 generations later in the AMC engine evolution, so I don't know how easily it would go into the car. It evidently has a taller deck height which translates to both greater width and greater height than the 287. I don't know about the engine mounts or the bell housing bolt patterns.

    A little more info could be found here:

    Wikipedia: AMC V8 engine

    and I would expect that more specific advice on any of these possible swaps can be gotten here:

    The AMC Forum

    Hope that helps.
     
  4. you can rebuild those b/w trans for fairly cheap from what i have found online. as far as the 287 have you tried working at freeing it up? if you can get it free maybe you could get it running, the flat six in my nash was stuck when i got it and i was able to free it up and it runs great with good compression. the local cascade ramblers is a good club to join for those cars, thats how the wife ended up with her 64 rambler american. Feel free to pm me if you have any questions!

    heres a link to a rebuild kit for the B/W

    http://www.transmissionpartsusa.com/T35_Transmission_Rebuild_Kits_s/2051.htm

    C.L.
     

  5. farna
    Joined: Jul 8, 2005
    Posts: 1,229

    farna
    Member

    The 287/327 is a GEN-1 AMC V-8 (often just called a Rambler V-8). It has a different bolt pattern than all other Ramblers, and there are no adapter plates. If the car is an auto the trans isn't too hard to rebuild, nor is the three speed manual.

    It's pretty tough to stick any other drivetrain in one of those, even a later AMC. It has a torque tube rear axle. The tube has the driveshaft inside of it (just in case you didn't know) and also serves ass the main locating arm for the rear axle. It connects to the rear of the transmission. The trans output shaft housing has the torque tube flange made onto it, so it's impossible to just swap engines and trannys without building a new rear suspension. I have used ladder bars (work good, cheap and easy), and most recently did it the expensive way -- Jaguar IRS (nice ride and handling, but not likely to do that again!!).

    There are no speed parts made for the 287. If you're rebuilding it call CompCams or one of the other cam companies and ask about getting the stock cam reground for a bit more pep. Wouldn't do much, but the AMC cams were real conservative. The 287 never came with a 4V, but most 327s did and the intakes interchange. In fact, ALL parts interchange. The only difference between the two is the bore -- stroke (crank and rods) are identical. 287 has a 3-3/4" bore, 327 a 4" bore. It's a tough, smooth engine, even if it does weigh a good bit more than a small block. Can't blow one up without a LOT of effort! The stock 327 4V is only about 450 cfm, so it's a big limiting factor. The 287 2V is only around 250 cfm. More carb is a definite must, but don't go crazy! For the kid you want a bit of a limit anyway. 600 cfm would be good for either engine, though the 327 will easily take a 650 cfm.
     
  6. He sounds like a smart kid. :)

    Keep the 287 or definitely a 327 if you've got one. Something different and you won't get any groans of disappointment from AMC guys when you pop the hood and they see a Chevy in there. ;)

    Believe everything farna says, he's the AMC guru.
     
  7. farna
    Joined: Jul 8, 2005
    Posts: 1,229

    farna
    Member

    Rebuilding the 287 would definitely be a good father/son experience, and it would keep the car parked until he's old enough to legally drive it...
     
  8. HemiRambler
    Joined: Aug 26, 2005
    Posts: 4,208

    HemiRambler
    Member

    Stuff a 304 in there - that'll make it that much easier later on when your kid wants to drop a 401 in there !!!!!!
     
  9. Now that's sound advice. ;)

    Crazy hot rodder!!!
     
  10. farna
    Joined: Jul 8, 2005
    Posts: 1,229

    farna
    Member

    Yeah, but go back to my 11-15 post. It's a lot of work to put anything but a 287/327 in there. Not a real bad idea, but the whole drivetrain and rear suspension has to be changed. It's not an excessive amount of work, but some welding and fabrication will be involved.
     
  11. I'm pretty sure HemiRambler knows that, he's jut being a smart arse CRAZY HOT RODDER. ;)
     
  12. 56oldsDarrin
    Joined: May 9, 2009
    Posts: 396

    56oldsDarrin
    Member

    thank you guys. I was hoping the 327 intake would fit,a small 4 barrel is a must. Delta cams is just across the bridge in Tacoma, hopefully they can regrind a little growl into an old cam.
    Gunnar (my son) is pretty set on the 287 and has been feverishly researching old AMC's and Ramblers in particular.(It brings a glow to my heart)
    We will be posting pics as soon as we get it here, which should be right after Christmas.
    Its at a friend of mines place right now.
     
  13. dmw56
    Joined: Jan 1, 2008
    Posts: 709

    dmw56
    Member

  14. Is that B/W trans the same one Rambler used in 1958-1959-1960?

    If so, it may be possible to combine parts to get a Ford Y-block or early big block 352 bolt pattern (so what else used that pattern? Early 289?). Here's why: Ford used the same trans in at least 1957-58-59. At least per my old Motor's Manuals. Studebaker and Jeep also used it at various points.

    What's even more interesting is in Ramblers it was a push-button trans in the 58-61 cars anyhow, but a conventional shifter in the others, torque tube in the Rambler and open drive in the others.

    You'd probably have to combine parts from a couple of different transmissions to make it work, but hey it needs rebuilding anyways, right?
     
  15. HemiRambler
    Joined: Aug 26, 2005
    Posts: 4,208

    HemiRambler
    Member

    Me? A CRAZY HOT RODDER! Why Thank You!!! :D

    Yeah "alot" of work is relative. I'm sure it'd be easier than say stuffing a Chrysler Hemi in there.:rolleyes:



     
  16. retromotors
    Joined: Dec 10, 2008
    Posts: 1,045

    retromotors
    Member

    I thought the 287 in my Ambassador wagon was stuck from sitting.

    Come to find out, the engine itself was free ... the water pump was locked up.

    Try again, maybe you'll get lucky!;)
     
  17. RamblerClassic
    Joined: Dec 5, 2009
    Posts: 140

    RamblerClassic
    Member

    Im the 13 Year old son that Darrin was talking about. We thought about the 304, and honestly, I would prefer it in terms of performance, but the 327 would be easier to bolt in, farna, which do you think would be better for a first car, (Keep in mind, i plan on doing a couple runs down the 1/4 mile here and there.)
     
  18. farna
    Joined: Jul 8, 2005
    Posts: 1,229

    farna
    Member

    The 327 will easily outperform a 304. Even if you have the 287 it will perform as good as a 304. Parts interchange between the 287 and 327, so get a 327 4V intake. It's not that hard to make a later model AMC aluminum intake fit. you have to make a pair of 1/2" thick adapter plates to go between the head and intake, and you have to cut the water cross-over in front off the late model intake (use the original water cross-over). The ports aren't an exact match in shape, but the 1/2" thick spacer can be used to blend the ports in as they aren't far off. That, a re-ground cam, and a nice Holley or Edelbrock 600 or 650 cfm carb (287 or 327) would be a nice enough boost to get respectable performance.

    Forget a "lopey" cam -- go with something you can easily drive! "Lopey" cams don't produce good vacuum at low rpm for a brake booster and will in general be harder to drive on the street, especially in cold weather. So the sound might be good, but you'll only get more power at high speeds. Get what most people would call an "RV" or "towing" grind on the cam. That will give you lots of low end torque that will pull the car out of the hole and accelerate real good, though it will run out of breath by the end of a 1/4 mile track. Most tracks are 1/8 mile anymore, but if you get to the end first it doesn't matter if the other car has caught up! The car will get decent fuel mileage (it's not going to get much over 20 mpg on the road, you know, an average will be around 16-17 in all kinds of driving, 20-22 mpg on the road if you baby it and keep speed to 60-65 mph) and have great "get-up-and-go" with that kind of cam and the stock rear axle gearing.
     
  19. brocluno
    Joined: Nov 1, 2009
    Posts: 165

    brocluno
    Member

    Stick the 327 in there. Basic hot rodding - cubic inches :) The 327 is a great tough little motor and when painted well, they look nice. I'd be looking for a three speed and clutch, but that's just me.

    The B-W tranny won't take a ton of abuse so watch how you launch. I have scattered the converters off early Ramblers. They ain't that tough either.
     
  20. bbc 1957 gasser
    Joined: Aug 3, 2007
    Posts: 685

    bbc 1957 gasser
    Member

    do you guys know if a 3 speed off a rambler 6cyld will bolt on a rambler 327 ?
     
  21. farna
    Joined: Jul 8, 2005
    Posts: 1,229

    farna
    Member

    Emphatically not in 95% of cases! The sixes used a little T-96 that isn't quite strong enough for the bigger 232 six, It was used behind it for a couple years in the Gremlin and Hornet, but that was a special HD version with a bigger input shaft... not that it did much good! Marginal behind the 232 even then. The exception is that a heavy duty option of the T-85 was available, but generally only used in taxis and other fleet cars. It was used behind the 287 V-8 also, and would hold up under normal driving behind a 327, but you'd still need a bell housing. I've never seen one of these, but know it's in the books as available. Don't know if AMC used a deeper six bell or a shorter input shaft (I'd think the later would be most likely and cheaper, but the bell might be deeper -- AMC had their own foundry, bought the trannys). The bell for the early six and V-8 are different. Changed in 1972 when the six adopted the V-8 bell, but that's the late V-8 bell pattern, which is different from the early one.

    The 327 typically used a T-89 three speed, which is what the T-10 four speed was developed from (fourth replaced reverse, reverse added in output shaft housing, same case!). It's pretty tough!

    Any 250/287/327 trans will work, but as I said, the smaller two used a T-85. If you plan on cruising, it should be fine. Plan on pounding it a bit, well, you'll eventually put some serious wear on it, but I don't think it would break. The T-96 has a four bolt top cover, the T-85 has six bolts. I think the T-89 has six alos, but might be eight. T-xx is cast into the side of the case, so it's easy enough to figure out!
     

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