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Rack & pinion for 58-64 ford

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by BOB JULIANO, Feb 23, 2009.

  1. We have been working on some 1960 Fords in the shop and have start to mess around with a center steer G.M. rack into these full size Fords. We are half way through the project and if there is any interest I will post more info as we go. We have mounted the rack so that the 2 center tyrods are located in the exact position as the original and when finished should work perfectly. I belive that these Ford frames are the same from 58 to 64.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. injunjoes
    Joined: May 8, 2007
    Posts: 235

    injunjoes
    Member

    im interested post away
     
  3. I see in the pic with the tie rod ends on the bracket that they are offset to what appears to be the center of the rack. That is, if where that bracket bolts is the center of the rack.

    I am interested in this area because I have the same rack on my 55 Ford. But something is not centered correctly, it turns sharper one way more than the other.
    Also that "center piece" has alot of play up and down, making for loose steering or floating about the road. Not severe, just enough to be annoying. Is the new one that way? Can you push that bracket with the tie rods on it up and down easily?

    I haven't really attacked this problem yet, so any info will help. What is the rack from anyway? Cavalier? Cadillac? I do not remember..
     
  4. stealthcruiser
    Joined: Dec 24, 2002
    Posts: 3,744

    stealthcruiser
    Member

    Yessir!!!!!

    Interested here!

    Post on, Brother, post on!
     

  5. hotrod-Linkin
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 3,382

    hotrod-Linkin
    Member

    i've used the same setup in shoeboxes,54's and 55's
     
  6. Dirtynails
    Joined: Jan 31, 2009
    Posts: 843

    Dirtynails
    Member
    from garage

    I'm only looking at pictures but i can see a basic engineering mistake. The upper and lower control arm pivots are mounted in a centerline . The pivot point of the racks inner ball joints MUST be in those two centerlines other wise the ,as the arms move through their arcs the length of the steering rack is forced to change . The old bump steer comes into play . :)
    Your idea is OK,but here is how it's done to correct bump steer.
    [​IMG]
     
  7. The bracket is made to relocate the tyrod ends to the exact position they were originally. The rack is mounted off set for header clearence and there for the tyrod bracket has to be off set to put them back in the center of the frame. It's important to make sure the rack is in the center of it's travel when mounted in place before you make the tyrod off set mount. This is all proto type to me at this point but i see no reason why the center of this rack would move up and down. The drivers side bracket should be designed to keep the rack from rotating and there for stop any up and down movement of the center. I see that some other guys have already done something like this so i am going to pick their brains a bit.
     
  8. Ryan
    Joined: Jan 2, 1995
    Posts: 19,401

    Ryan
    ADMINISTRATOR
    from Austin, TX
    Staff Member

    Good stuff... should be a good follow for sure.
     
  9. The original 60 ford has the tyrods exactly were i have them now. If i have bump steer than the 1960 ford had bump steer.
     
  10. If you look at this photo you will see that the lower control arm on those Fords has an inner pivot that is mounted very far inward. Where the steering arm pivots in this photos are, and in Bob's design are where Ford originally placed them. (This photo is from another manufacturer)
    [​IMG]
     
  11. who makes this set-up? In the picture it looks like their center joints are closer then the originals. Has anyone used this set-up on there car?
     
  12. That is made by Rick Wurth, Wurth It Designs. There have been a bunch of articles about it over the years.

    Also the 60-64 frame is wider than the 57-59. inch and half I think.
     

  13. thanks, i have a 58 and 59 in the warehouse i will check that out.
     
  14. Dirtynails
    Joined: Jan 31, 2009
    Posts: 843

    Dirtynails
    Member
    from garage

    You can't alter what is going to happen when the arms move through one arc and the steering tie rod ends move through another .

    If you look at the picture I posted the whole problem is solved in one simple solution. Place the pivot points in the control arm center line.


    Build in bump steer? why? .
    Hers another example on how to do it correctly.
    you will notice the ball ends on the rack are in the centerline of the control pivots.
    [​IMG]
    Basically it doesn't matter where the rack is mounted or how it operates,the tie rod ends must move in the same arcs as the arms.
    Try removing the springs, then with the rack in place ,move the arms up and down through the full range. if the rack is moving AT ALL, it is wrong .
     
  15. so what you are saying is that the 60-64 Fords were built with a bump steer problem.
     
  16. I'm also interested , but , can someone tell me if you lose turning radius one way. I believe this is caused by the rack not being centered. Just my two cents, but, Dirtynails geometry theory is bang on, still my stock 62 exhibits no bump steer.
    Doug.
     
  17. I am interested in following along, I have a 57 with a FE in it.

    What spindles and disc brakes are you using?



    CBB
     
  18. [​IMG]
    This drawing does show the correct theoretical design for zero bump steer in a double A Arm set up. It is what dirtynails was describing. HOWEVER in the real world alternative methods can and do work. I think the 50's Ford depicted above worked because they moved the inner pivot far enough inward that the difference in movement became slight and therefore there was no "Perceptible" bump steer, measurable maybe, but not anything you could feel.
    Look at the Off Road Racing VW Beam axles. We would get 20"+ of travel with a steering arm location on the rack that was a foot away from the pivot points and again, no perceptible bump steer.
    I think if you actually stroke the ford front end and measure it you will find small amounts of bump steer at full compression.
     
  19. T McG
    Joined: Feb 12, 2005
    Posts: 1,255

    T McG
    Member
    from Phoenix

    I used a Fatman kit on a 50 Ford that uses the rack you are using. It lost a lot of turning radius due to the racks short travel.
     
  20. The rack does not have to be centered. However you have to compensate for it by off setting the tyrods. When the rack is in it's center position you need to mount the tyrods in the center of the frame. This rack is 6 turns lock to lock. so 3 turns from the fully turned position either way is the center. once we had the rack mounted so it cleared everything we had to off set the tyrods about 1.5 inchs to the pass.side to compensate for the rack not mounting in the center.
     
  21. Fatman dropped spindles and ECI brakes.
     
  22. hotrod-Linkin
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 3,382

    hotrod-Linkin
    Member

    you are correct.the rack does not matter where it is as long as it is level to the car and the car is level to the ground when installed.the drag link on my 51 for and 54 ford were 2 inches shorter on the driver side to line up the steering shaft to the column better.
     
  23. Dirtynails
    Joined: Jan 31, 2009
    Posts: 843

    Dirtynails
    Member
    from garage

    I will repeat myself so you don't build a mistake into your design and i'm trying to help you not critisize you.:)
    THE END OF THE AXLE MOVES UP AND DOWN vertically in a straight line.. THE ARMS MOVE IN ARC . IF YOU HAVE TIE RODS THAT ARE SHORTER OR LONGER (your example) THE ARMS ARE BEING FORCED TO BECOME SHORTER OR LONGER PULLING THE STEERING AWAY FROM THE DIRECTION OF TRAVEL. It's not rocket science it's basic mechanical stuff. The tie rod must move in the same arc as the control arm. Simple don't you agree?.
    You are not the first to make a rack conversion,there are dozens of companies across the world doing it but they all recognise that building bump steer is not good practice for any number of reasons. The idea of mounting rack steering (rightly or wrongly) is to improve steering not incorperate bad drive feel just because a solution is available but not being implemented.
    As For Ford,I wouldn't have faintest idea but i do know that the pivot point on all Ford cars and any other make you care to mention with IFS are designed so that the pivot centerlines remain in alignment in normal road driving condition.
     
  24. hotrod-Linkin
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 3,382

    hotrod-Linkin
    Member

  25. 29nash
    Joined: Nov 6, 2008
    Posts: 4,544

    29nash
    BANNED
    from colorado

    <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by BOB JULIANO [​IMG]
    The rack does not have to be centered. However you have to compensate for it by off setting the tyrods. When the rack is in it's center position you need to mount the tyrods in the center of the frame. This rack is 6 turns lock to lock. so 3 turns from the fully turned position either way is the center. once we had the rack mounted so it cleared everything we had to off set the tyrods about 1.5 inchs to the pass.side to compensate for the rack not mounting in the center.
    </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

    X3.............................

    I'm for new ideas, also a cheapass, got mine from pick and pull for $20 including tir-rod ends, pump and hoses for my custom truck with 'beam axle. It's 2002 Saturn rack (rear steer), it works great. Off-center to accomodate steering wheel/U-joint/shaft alignment, longer tie-rod end on one end, cut tie-rod on other end shorter, fabricated my own brackets.
    With car on ground at, ride-height, I supported it with a temporary fixture made of angle iron with 4 standoffs(2 for each tie-rod), to hold the entire rack assembly perfectly straight, with rack gears in center position.

    Next I positioned it were the DDshaft off the U-joint lined up with the rack gear shaft. It was off-center at that point so I situated it where the left tie-rod end lined up with the steering arm with the wheel centered dead ahead, turning the tie-rod end all the way on, then backing it off 5 turns. I also reversed the steering arms coming off the back-plates to equalize the distances.

    With that done, the right tie rod was too long but when I cut it off just right to accept the right tie rod end and lock nut, with right wheel dead ahead it screwed on with a good dozen threads or so, allowing for future toe-adjustments.

    With it all hanging on the tie-rod ends and with tie-rods locked perfectly straight with the temporary angle iron fixture, I then fabricated a cross-member of 3" square tube, angling down from the frame and then across, with slotted holes to mount the rack to. The slotted holes were my plan to be able to adjust/experiment if I ended up with bump-steer.

    As far as bump-steer, I have a lot of people looking under there, then they proceed to tell me "that's not good, it will have bump-steer", etc, etc. When I tell them I don't have bump-steer, they so much as to call me a liar. "Are you SURE that you don't have bump-steer?" "No I don't" "It looks like you would with the way that is mounted" "Yep, I'm posative".
    There are definate advantages of R&P over most other setups. One thing that most armchair critics of dual tie-rod R&P don't understand is (even when a system is set up violating basic geometry theory), that a bump on one side has no effect on the other side, therefore any tendency to pull by the tire on that side is countered by the straight ahead track of the tire on the other side. Likewise, an equal/straight ahead bump on both sides changes toe, but don't cause the car to dart/pull one way or the other. (even on a system with geometry flaws). Consequently, bump doesn't change steer that much, but would obviously cause more tire wear. In reality, when the apparent causes of bump-steer are addressed by optimum rod length/angle and geometry of the components are addressed, R&P actually gives a more solid/responsive/stable steer than any others. It certainly does give a more stable response with my 'beam axle mounted on paralell leafs. It drives so much better, feels as it's locked down to the road, no drifting/no sway/no lurch from side to side, period.

    I'd like to see different installations. I'm interested, please post progress.............
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2009
  26. Dirtynails
    Joined: Jan 31, 2009
    Posts: 843

    Dirtynails
    Member
    from garage

    To add to this further,here is some really useful info to help you design a a good system. These are the regulations we have to work to here when modiying cars. It's not some guess work made up by Beaurocrats sitting in an office,but actual engineered design techniques submitted by experts over the last 30 years.
    http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/pdf/NCOP11_Section_LS_Suspension_and_steering_3Feb2006.pdf
    And lots more here.
    http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/street_rod.aspx
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2009
  27. hotrod-Linkin
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 3,382

    hotrod-Linkin
    Member

    i'll check the regs next time i make a cut...
     
  28. Armstrong
    Joined: Apr 17, 2004
    Posts: 371

    Armstrong
    Member

    What we are missing here is a pic of the unmodified(stock) Ford steering so we can compare the tie rod arrangements. Anyone want to post it so we can compare them?
     
  29. bossman47
    Joined: Feb 11, 2009
    Posts: 11

    bossman47
    Member

    Great Stuff! So, if I mount the rack in my 55 with the tie rods parallel to the lower control arm and the inner tie rod ends the same distance apart as the original center link, then I should not have any bumpsteer. It being a given that the center travel point of the rack is in the center of the frame. Is that correct?
     
  30. hotrod-Linkin
    Joined: Feb 7, 2007
    Posts: 3,382

    hotrod-Linkin
    Member

    even after these precaustions ,it is still best to use a bumpsteer preventative rod end that adjust the bumpsteer out.
     

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