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Technical Question about adjusting bones/tie rod ends?

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by 49Ratrod, Apr 16, 2019.

  1. 49StreetRod
    Joined: Apr 10, 2019
    Posts: 13

    49StreetRod
    Member
    from Irwin, PA

    31Vicky here are shots of the rod I am assuming this is where you adjust them. Never knew I could.

    So I would loosen the front end up to get these off...and turn them to adjust. How far do you think I would need to pull each side back since the consensus was they are too long? Until the pins straighten out?
     

    Attached Files:

  2. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,135

    F&J
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Those are typical tie rod ends.

    Take the nut off, but they have tapered shank so it will still be stuck. Best to use a tie rod end puller, maybe borrow one if Parts Stores have those as rentals.

    Or, jamb a long pry bar between the mounting bracket and the bone. Hold serious pressure with the bar, then hit the part of the bracket sharply with a hammer where the tapered bung is welded in the plate. It should "pop" free...so leave the nut on a few turns for safety.

    Unscrew the rod end a few threads at a time, and push the taper back in the bracket to see how the shackles look. Repeat until it looks correct. By the way, you are missing the lock nuts, called 'Jamb Nuts', which keep the threads from wearing out in the bones. Hardware store might have them locally in that thread. They are just thinner nuts than normal, to save space

    Do one side at a time. The bone end might want to drop down due to weight on the front end...that is normal, just lift up on the bone end to get it back in place.
     
  3. prpmmp
    Joined: Dec 12, 2011
    Posts: 946

    prpmmp
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Remember adjusting the lengths of the bones is changing the wheel base, you want to be parallel with the rear axle(and equal in distance), which should be perpendicular to the center of the frame. I set the car at ride height the plum bob down and draw lines on the floor and square everything up. think square plum and level. I hope this makes sense for I am terrible at explaining things. Pete
     
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  4. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 504

    lake_harley
    Member

    If I'm looking at the one photo correctly, it appears the left side radius rod bracket that's welded to the frame is bent to about 90 degrees, putting the shaft of the rod end vertical? Was it intended to be and built that way? I've always seen the radius rod brackets parallel to the side of the frame rail (like the other photo shows), never bent to be parallel to the ground. Is this a car you've had for a while or maybe recently purchased?

    Lynn
     
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  5. 49StreetRod
    Joined: Apr 10, 2019
    Posts: 13

    49StreetRod
    Member
    from Irwin, PA

    Had for over a year now. I bought the body/frame/suspension done the way it looks. I did everything else as far as engine/trans/wiring/cosmetic.

    I dont know if this is correct as this is my first street rod and this suspension is all new to me. That seemed odd to me, but just some history since my other threat was somehow deleted, I recently had the death wobble everyone talks about and trying to figure out why. It has only happened 3 so everyone on here has helped me point out it could be the tie rods are a bit too long.
     
  6. woodiewagon46
    Joined: Mar 14, 2013
    Posts: 1,301

    woodiewagon46
    Member
    from New York

    Are you going into a straight hole or is it a tapered hole to match the taper of the rod end?
     
  7. 49StreetRod
    Joined: Apr 10, 2019
    Posts: 13

    49StreetRod
    Member
    from Irwin, PA

    Here is the other pics I had uploaded to start figuring my issue out previously.....It was pointed out by a few members the tie rods are too long buckling the pins on top.

    I have the steering box and drag link disconnected right now as the weld on the steering box bracket broke. Whoever built the frame used a small piece of steel for the bracket so I bought a new bracket that will be much sturdier once I get it welded on.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Yep, you’ve got some issues there.

    The brackest should be the same. Identical attachment points.
    Not normally are the 90* to the frame but really fucked up if one is and one isn’t.

    Get the brackets fixed, sorted, discovered why, get the camber built in correctly first then begin the adjusting.
     
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  9. The death wobble thread isn’t needed anymore but sucks that they cut it.
     
  10. 49StreetRod
    Joined: Apr 10, 2019
    Posts: 13

    49StreetRod
    Member
    from Irwin, PA

    Thanks everyone. I am going to get everything back together and run it down to a buddy of mine at an alignment shop and get some opinions and ill work on getting the brackets straitened out.

    So 31vicky...I should make both brackets like the passenger (not the 90* bend)?
     
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  11. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 13,586

    alchemy
    Member

    Yeah, that driver's side wishbone mount got bent somehow. You'll need to straighten that out. Might even be wise to gusset those brackets as they seem a little spindly.

    I don't like Heim joints used for tie rod ends. Why does yours have them? If it was mine I'd buy new steering arms with the proper tapered hole (yours were probably drilled out to fit the bolts in there) and use some real automotive rod ends. Every straight hole (like a bolt through a Heim might have) is prone for a little slop (unless the bolt is pressed into the hole, which I doubt yours is). This might be where your death wobble is coming from. A tapered hole like a true rod end uses will not have any slop. Fix them.
     
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  12. lake_harley
    Joined: Jun 4, 2017
    Posts: 504

    lake_harley
    Member

    I'm no expert on suspension but I don't understand what might have been meant by "buckling the pins". As far as I'm concerned, adjusting the tie rod ends in or out (those pictured in the ends of your radius rods) would only be used to set the wheelbase the same on both sides of the car and to square the front axle to the frame.

    As far as threads being deleted, had you perhaps used the term r-- rod (also called "rodent")? A dim view is typically taken of the term on the HAMB.

    Lynn
     
  13. 49StreetRod
    Joined: Apr 10, 2019
    Posts: 13

    49StreetRod
    Member
    from Irwin, PA

    Again, I bought the base already so I had no say in how this suspension was built. I would think from all the opinions you guys have given the wobble would happen a lot, but it has only happened 3 times in alittle over 1.5 years. Everyones comments have been greatly appreciated and seem I have some work to do to get everything straightened out.
     
  14. No, not tie rods!
    Your bones are too long, thus pushing the axle forward of the spring and binding the spring and shackles evidence shown in perch pin rotation and shackles twisted
     
  15. 49StreetRod
    Joined: Apr 10, 2019
    Posts: 13

    49StreetRod
    Member
    from Irwin, PA

    Thanks for the clarification 31. I am going to get working on straightening out the bracket before I adjust the bones. I will follow what F&J said and see what I can get done. It is going to take some time but ill post some results once I get to it. Keep the comments coming!
     
  16. jimvette59
    Joined: Apr 28, 2008
    Posts: 677

    jimvette59
    Member

    Get rid of all the miss matched parts and start over. JMHO
     
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  17. And because I didn't see anyone else mention it...add some jam nuts to the tie rods at the end of the wishbones.
     
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  18. guitarguy
    Joined: May 26, 2008
    Posts: 99

    guitarguy
    Member

    Wow, that one bracket is seriously messed up. I was wondering what happened to the other thread Wonder why it got deleted?

    I would not try to bend that bracket back personally. I would just buy a new one (probably have to by a pair). However from things I have seen so far, I might be inclined to cut both brackets off the frame, get the front end straightened out (hopefully the spring crossmember has some caster angle in it), and Then figure out where the brackets need to be---but check in here before you do reweld them back on, they just can't be welded on in any spot that "seems" right.
     
  19. oj
    Joined: Jul 27, 2008
    Posts: 6,041

    oj
    Member

    Before you tear it all apart how about some pics of the suspension 'loaded' where the jackstands are under the front axle (and rear axle) and the weight of the car is on it.
     
    lothiandon1940 likes this.
  20. If that bent wishbone bracket has raised that end of the bone several inches, then that is trying to put unequal caster (right vs. left) into the axle by twisting it. One side will continually be fighting the other, causing directional problems, and maybe your wobble.
    Fix THAT first. Replace the brackets after checking the frame for square and plumbing the location as has been mentioned.

    Replace the tie rod heim ends with automotive tie rod ends, as was already said.

    Lots wrong going on in your pics, but relatively easily corrected, one step at a time.
     
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  21. 49StreetRod
    Joined: Apr 10, 2019
    Posts: 13

    49StreetRod
    Member
    from Irwin, PA

    I dont have more pictures straight on of the front and rear axle but can get some. And I am going to do one thing at a time and will post pictures along the way. However, maybe I am wrong, but for whatever reason I think this was designed this way whoever built the suspension...my only thinking is I do not know what would have bent this bracket this bad and not damaged anything else on the car if it wasn't. Maybe I am wrong. And the car rides straight as an arrow, doesn't pull one way. Like I said only had the wobble 3 times and its at very low speeds when hitting bumps. This type of suspension is my first so all of you are teaching me as I go on what to look for which is why I joined.

    I am going to finish the steering box bracket then I will get new brackets so each side matches. They do come in pairs but may only need 1. Before I weld any new brackets on I will check back here with some pictures to see the right spots to weld. I want to loosen everything up to see if I can get the shackles straight. Going to take some time, but all this input has me in the right direction.
     

    Attached Files:

  22. When using split bones (like you have) the elevation of the frame bracket determines the caster. Sometimes the bones need to be cut and welded with the proper caster built in.
    F2943320-58EF-4479-8686-58A8F677ABD6.jpeg

    On these axles we measure the caster at the top of the king pin, both sides should be equal caster.

    Under no reasonable circumstances should one frame bracket and bone be discernibly higher than the other.

    Once again you mentioned it was only on one wheel with the death wobble. That may be the case, however if that is so then there definitely is worn parts if one wheel can wobble without affecting the other thru the tie rod. I can’t tell you which parts but if all is well should be impossible to wiggle one wheel and not the other
     
  23. 49StreetRod
    Joined: Apr 10, 2019
    Posts: 13

    49StreetRod
    Member
    from Irwin, PA

    31vicky...Maybe I was wrong, it had to be both right simply because of how the tie rods are. I said only driver side because i could easily see the hard wobble on my side as I was driving, let alone feel it. Scary thing.

    So looking at your picture, does the 'A' to 'C' matter as far as angle? Or the point is to make sure the length is the same from king pin to mount? Making sure the brackets are the same on each side as well.

    I know I need to pull mine in a bit.
     
  24. alchemy
    Joined: Sep 27, 2002
    Posts: 13,586

    alchemy
    Member

    I could definitely see it wobbling only (or mostly) on the driver side. That is the side attached with only heim ends on the tie rod. At least the passenger side receives its input from the drag link which has a real rod end on it. And, if the caster is screwed up on the driver's side because of that bashed bracket, that could also be another good cause for wobble.
     
  25. ClarkH
    Joined: Jul 21, 2010
    Posts: 707

    ClarkH
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Could the weird 90-degree bracket be a previous owner's misguided attempt at fixing a clearance issue with the pitman arm?
     
  26. 41rodderz
    Joined: Sep 27, 2010
    Posts: 2,158

    41rodderz
    Member
    from Oregon

    Dang wish you were a lot closer , I would come over and help you . It's a mess but take your time. Measure, remeasure and measure a few more times. Get a helper out there to help measure and keep both ends of the tape on the same exact spots.
     
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  27. koolbeans
    Joined: Apr 12, 2015
    Posts: 217

    koolbeans

    Let's summarize here for a minute. Old technology, been around for ever and has worked really well for lots of years. But there are a few basic rules that have to be strictly adhered to.
    A) a centerline of the frame needs to be established. Very important.
    B) everything applied to the front end needs to be perpendicular to the center line of the frame and equidistant to and from the centerline.
    C) all attachment points need to be equidistant both horizontally and vertically from the centerline.
    D) spring needs to connect to the center of the cross member.
    E) the split wishbones need to be equal length and attached to each side of the frame at equal distance from the spring center bolt and with the same hardware. (heim joints (alineable rod ends) are fine. Not $2 ones but chrome moly ptfe lined ones. They do 200+ mph every day with no induced wobble)
    F) wishbone attachment to frame in part determines castor. Castor to some degree is usually built into the wishbone. So raising or lowering the attachment, equally on both sides of the frame can add or reduce axle castor. 5-7degrees positive (axle leaning back) is a sweet spot. ( Never ever negative leaning forward. You'll never predict what tree you will hit).( More positive castor..... straight as an arrow down the road...more effort when parking and no ps).
    G) so, we are now resting on the spring center pin, and the axle is attached via the split wishbones. All equidistant and parallel/perpendicular to the centerline. Kool
    H) now for steering. Again it's always best to be parallel and equidistant to the centerline..but also striving to be in the same plane of the wishbones.
    Meaning steering box (Vega) mounted high (or low) and the drag link from the pitman arm is going up or down hill not in same plane of tie rod. No workie well. Hell on bump steer. Shake steering wheel out of hands.
    I) all hardware needs to be grade 5 or better and fresh. Not worn out loose.
    J) finally....with split wishbones...a panhard rod is a must...longer the better and again in the same plane as the drag link and tie rod.
    Note.. on this tried and proven combination the travel up and travel down might only be 11/2" up and 11/2" down from static. That's three inches total. Not a lot.
    Anyway if your arithmetic follows the above...all should work well.
    Steering stabilizers are a bandaid for the math being off.

    Sent from my XT1710-02 using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
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  28. chopndrop
    Joined: Feb 8, 2005
    Posts: 653

    chopndrop
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Maybe someone used that bracket as a jack point, lifted the car up and it folded? Just a guess.

    49StreetRod, you are in very capable hands. I suggest you follow whatever 31Vicky says and you'll get this straightened out.
     
  29. clem
    Joined: Dec 20, 2006
    Posts: 2,209

    clem
    Member

    A couple of other things;
    Don’t appear to have too much shock travel.
    Bottom leaf of spring appears a bit long, looking at shackle angle, and maybe second leaf is also too long.
     

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