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Project 29 Tudor in Mass.

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by Mikel50, Apr 17, 2015.

  1. Mikel50
    Joined: Mar 30, 2015
    Posts: 979

    Mikel50

    Hey guys,
    First time posting here.
    I'm in need of some help, guidance and possible answers to the beginning of my long list of questions... And the beginning of my build thread.
    I just picked up my dream hotrod project.
    Finally after a long search and almost giving up and settling for a fordor, I found this 1929 Tudor w/3" chop, V8 Flathead
    The motor has 21 stud heads w the water necks on the front of the heads. I believe it's a late 49' motor but I read they were 24 bolts. So there lies my confusion.
    The tub is sitting On 34 rails (I was told by the person I bought it from, but he wasn't sure)
    How can I tell ?


    The body is all Henry steel. No major issues

    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1429321500.171252.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1429321578.474153.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1429321637.090857.jpg

    Can anyone help me identify the frame by the front cross members and help identify the motor.
    21 stud / water necks on the front of the heads.
    Displacement ?

    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1429321995.998344.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1429322062.076751.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1429322123.385584.jpg

    My plans are to run exactly what I have here and do a 50's period traditional style hotrod.
    Not a rat rod but not a 6 figure show car. Two teenage kids and an Ex-wife will make sure of that.

    So glad to have finally joined the club and filled with enthusiasm to start my family project !

    Mike.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2017
    Dino 64, Nicksibley, THECHICK and 5 others like this.
  2. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,146

    F&J
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Need better pics of chassis.

    It is a spring-ahead front end. Those started in 1935, up to 48. The front crossmember looks heavily modified/added to, probably to move that type of front end a few inches more forward, to get the axle back where it once was. 34 and older axles were spring above.

    Need a pic looking down at the front crossmember. Also a better view of the outer part of the front axle beam, to nail down a year of axle.

    Pic of center of chassis, if there is no floor. 33-up had a center X.
     
  3. Mikel50
    Joined: Mar 30, 2015
    Posts: 979

    Mikel50

    I will take those pics in the am. There is an X member on the chassis for sure. However, like the rest of the chassis it looks as though it too has been modified also.
    The motor looks like it's in the same timeframe the more I look at pics online.
    The water necks were my first reason to believe it was a late 49 however it appears the 30's flatheads had them also. Including the water pumps on the heads as well as the same distributor my engine has.
    Thank you for the response.
    I'll get the pics up first thing tomorrow.
     
  4. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,146

    F&J
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    one more pic under the rear end, to see what year the rear trailing arms are.

    The area where the arms attach to the rear end.
     
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  5. Manager
    Joined: Mar 22, 2014
    Posts: 234

    Manager
    Member

    Looks like model A frame with something welded on the outside and 35/36 front end and crosmember mounted forward of the A crossmember. It's probably a 34 x member.
     
    39cdan, patmanta and volvobrynk like this.
  6. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,580

    55willys
    Member

    Looks like the other guys got the frame, axle and cross member figured for you. The engine is early 21 stud used til about 37'
     
  7. ChefMike
    Joined: Dec 16, 2011
    Posts: 648

    ChefMike
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    looks like you have a great project ! have fun with it enjoy
     
  8. Mikel50
    Joined: Mar 30, 2015
    Posts: 979

    Mikel50

  9. Mikel50
    Joined: Mar 30, 2015
    Posts: 979

    Mikel50

    Not sure why the images didn't load. I'll retry in a few.
     
  10. Babar40
    Joined: Dec 4, 2009
    Posts: 300

    Babar40
    Member
    from Florida

    Welcome to the Jalopy Journal, where lots of good people and ideas get together. Good luck with your new find and remember, build it the way you want it!
     
    61Cruiser and Mikel50 like this.
  11. jcs64
    Joined: Apr 25, 2005
    Posts: 528

    jcs64
    Member

    was this the car from troy ny?
    I saw it listed on CL, and had to struggle not to go look at it (to much other work to do now).
    Good luck w/ it and have fun

    jeff
     
    Mikel50 likes this.
  12. volvobrynk
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,588

    volvobrynk
    Member
    from Denmark

    Try taking a look at the snoopy build thread.

    There is something about the way that frame is build that make me think about it snoopy.

    The guys is do a good job of keeping it as build. It's and old survivor hot rod though.

    I like it a lot, and like where you are going.
     
    Mikel50 likes this.
  13. Mikel50
    Joined: Mar 30, 2015
    Posts: 979

    Mikel50

    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1429363098.195108.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1429363111.384847.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1429363131.173950.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1429363145.433096.jpg ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1429363158.067242.jpg
    Here are a few better pics of the areas needed to help me identify what exactly it is I have.
    I purchased the car from Middletown NY two weeks ago and trailered it home this past Tuesday.
    I'm planning on getting the body off the frame soon. I am excited to know exactly what I have and take time to look back and find some period hot rods to go off of for reference on the build.

    Thanks guys for the help and support.
     
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  14. Dave50
    Joined: Mar 7, 2010
    Posts: 1,751

    Dave50
    Member

    Welcome to the hamb cool project alot of good guys here that can help u out I am wondering of your suppose to have a certain amount of post is why the pics dont load i remember reading that somewhere here along time ago good luck keep the pics and info coming
     
  15. Mikel50
    Joined: Mar 30, 2015
    Posts: 979

    Mikel50

    Thank you !
     
  16. Mikel50
    Joined: Mar 30, 2015
    Posts: 979

    Mikel50

    I'm going to be asking lots of questions and picking everyone's brains each step of the way...
    Thanks Dave.
     
    Dave50 likes this.
  17. jcs64
    Joined: Apr 25, 2005
    Posts: 528

    jcs64
    Member

    Middletown, that's right not sure why troy came to mind
     
  18. Mikel50
    Joined: Mar 30, 2015
    Posts: 979

    Mikel50

    I was shocked when I called and he said he still had it
    I drove out that weekend and bought the car.
    He had purchased it from an old timer in Middletown with plans on building a ro, he said his plans changed and decided to sell it after 9 months of looking at it on his trailer.
    So it now sits in my driveway awaiting it's new life.
     
  19. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,146

    F&J
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Well now.. :) ... that is an old "sketchy" hot rod build..

    The basic frame is Model A. The center X is from a 34-up Ford, and I can't ID it.

    The added front crossmember is from a later Ford that was "spring ahead" Not sure of the year, but that does not matter, because they missed the whole idea of using that later spring. What I mean is that a spring-ahead was used for lowering the front end. It would lower the car without needing to use a dropped axle, "if" it was installed correctly.

    They messed up, as the spring center mount is way too low, compared to where the Model A spring mount was. So that is why the front sits too high. I will try to get a pic of an old build hot rod I have in my barn. The builder made his own front crossmember "addition" to keep the front low, and to get the axle to the original wheelbase. It's simple, clean looking, and it worked. Most people today hate a spring ahead, but a few of us like to see a survivor once in awhile...if it was done right. One other issue with spring-ahead, is finding a good spot for the radiator to look "OK"

    The rear end setup: Looks like Model A axle tubes with the spring hangers on top of the axle. But then the hydraulic brake backing plates from a 39-up Ford had to be mounted upside-down, because the wheel cylinder hose would not fit up top near the spring hangers. The bleeders are at the bottom of the cylinders, which makes it impossible to bleed. Maybe they bled the brakes at the line itself?

    The rear trailing arms; I'm not sure at all. I am guessing 37-41?


    I can't tell if the front axle and split bones are 35/36 or if they are 37-41. You can tell if you measure the height of the axle perch boss. That is where the bone yokes go above and under the axle beam. The 35/36 axle boss is 2". The 37-up is 2-1/4". This is right where the perch bolt goes through the bones and though the axle beam.
     
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  20. Model A Gomez
    Joined: Aug 26, 2006
    Posts: 1,023

    Model A Gomez
    Member

    The rear end is from a later V8, torque tube and wishbone are both 37 or later and won't fit on a Model A rear end. Somebody has welded a spring mount to the housing. You can put hydraulic brakes on a Model A rear end by cutting a small notch in the backing plate to clear the spring mount, doesn't interfere with the brake lines, see attached picture.
     

    Attached Files:

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  21. 55willys
    Joined: Dec 7, 2012
    Posts: 1,580

    55willys
    Member

    IMG_20150115_192034444.jpg IMG_20141223_191812469.jpg By the spring mount on the front bones they are 35-36. I used a 35 axle on the A I am building now. The spring perches and a reverse eye spring allow you to use the stock cross member and still keep it fairly low. I like the use of early Ford stuff to do the modifications, that is the way it was done back in the day. A 59A Flathead will bolt in the same location as the early 21 stud. The 21 stud is fine if it runs I would use it while building a later engine for it as speed parts are scarce for that engine.
     
    Mikel50 likes this.
  22. orangeamcs
    Joined: Jun 23, 2007
    Posts: 599

    orangeamcs
    Member

    Get the tardel book as a reference
     
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  23. dentisaurus
    Joined: Dec 11, 2006
    Posts: 363

    dentisaurus
    Member
    from Boston

    Tardel book is really useful, search the HAMB for the few errors thatare in it. Looks like your off to a fun start, bit of work to do on the frame but the original front cross member is there so you have plenty of options.
    You can leave the rear brakes as they are and bleed them with a vacuum bleeder set up (guess that isn't too traditional, but it does work rather well)
    Good luck, happy hot rodding
     
    Mikel50 likes this.
  24. Flathead Dave
    Joined: Mar 21, 2014
    Posts: 2,100

    Flathead Dave
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from So. Cal.

    Looks like you are having fun with this build. Haw far back did you set your motor mounts from the front cross member and do you plan to run an electric fan or use the original fan set up?

    I am doing basically the same build. I will be placing my 239 Flatty w/ C-4 trans on a 1928-31 frame. I want to keep the integrity of my motor and use the original fan setup.
     
  25. Mikel50
    Joined: Mar 30, 2015
    Posts: 979

    Mikel50

    Hey guys,
    So today I separated the body from the chassis to see what I was in for...it was bad.
    I'm kinda feeling a bit deflated with all the torch cutting and horrible welds on the entire frame. It almost looks like the frame rails are even twisted in areas.
    So unfortunately I'm not sure it's even salvageable or worth trying to bring back.


    My question to you guys is, what is the ideal frame I should be looking for, has anyone purchased a weld it yourself frame kit ? Is it worth it, or should I just save the money and buy a frame.
    This is unexpected, so I'm pretty bummed as you could imagine.

    Fortunately the motor does spin and the transmission seems to shift through the gears fine. So that was the highlight of the day.

    Thanks for all the help and positive encouragement so far !
     
  26. volvobrynk
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,588

    volvobrynk
    Member
    from Denmark

    Okay, we need pics of your frame.


    This is the talk, from one that been there and knows a little, and still has advice to offer.

    I any build there will be doubt, re-doing work and set back! That's life in hot rodding, and also here.

    All cars build in the fifttys was build on old clapped out cars, on a shoestring, in a driveway and with limited tools. The sixtys was a lot of redoing old hot rods, that ones again had be drive hard and was back in the back row dealer lot.
    98% of all kids dident have a plasmacutter, heli arc or low spot file for body work, so
    They used torches, BFH, stick welders and there cars was a little rough.

    Almost no build in the 50s and 60s did work that looked like a frame build like El polako, body work like flop of drag cars like Langly builds them. They are master builders, and for the longest time I couldn't visit there build threads, because after that all I build looks like junk!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    But I can strongly recommend that you go look at threads like: the snoopy, I had to have this 31 or most any other thread with survivor in the title.
    They will give a better image on the really of what they looked like.

    And I can give you these two advises on top.

    Use the BELCOM method a lot when building. BEer, Lawn Chair, Old Music. Sit back at the end of the day, with a beer in a lawn chair and look at how fare you made it today, and how everything looks in relations to each other! This is important or it end up not so good.


    Post a lot of picture for a Q&A session and remember using the search feature for the FAQ

    Keep at it, lad.
     
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  27. Mikel50
    Joined: Mar 30, 2015
    Posts: 979

    Mikel50

    Here's a few pics of the frame, I'm aware these old cars come in all forms in regards to the work that had been performed back in the day. I understand they didn't have the tools that we do today...is this typically what people find when they dig into an 80+ year old car ?
    What are your thoughts on the state of the frame.
    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1429531014.430925.jpg
    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1429531028.147096.jpg
    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1429531066.767723.jpg
    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1429531098.727224.jpg
    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1429531111.643387.jpg
    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1429531143.600299.jpg
    ImageUploadedByH.A.M.B.1429531189.022987.jpg
     
    volvobrynk likes this.
  28. volvobrynk
    Joined: Jan 30, 2011
    Posts: 3,588

    volvobrynk
    Member
    from Denmark

    I Think you got "the real McCoy", a real survivor!
    Although not the prettiest work I seen, but by far not the sketchiest I have seen eighther.

    There is three ways of going about a survivor, to me at least.

    Check it, fix only broken.
    Take it apart, but reuse as much as possible, and mostly fix/change the rear kick up. Or make it stronger.
    Start over and do it like you want it.

    I actual like the way it look with the x-member and the to pieces of plate on top. Very traditional. The Finnish on the rear crossmember, is a little on the rough side. I would redo that, and fishplate it an enforce it.
    And to me those "legs" where the bones attach, looks ugly, but stout. I would try to make them look more elegant/race-like, and less dirt track roundy-round.
    But it should work fine.

    A little sandblasting, and behind the shop painting.

    Again, I looked on it from the start, and my first thought with those rough bones and 21 stud, that is eigther a RR or an survivor. I'm so glad it's a survivor!
    There was some sound ideas behind some of the work done to this little rod.

    I wouldn't be afraid of it! Fix broken and let it make you happy!
     
  29. slv63
    Joined: Aug 4, 2008
    Posts: 135

    slv63
    Member

    I'd keep what you have and modify as you see fit. I believe the "bend" in the frame rails is at least mostly how they are supposed to look. They are not supposed to be straight.

    I wouldn't be afraid to change what you have to suit your preferences or just to make it look better and stronger.

    IMHO I would get rid of the awkward cross member in front of the old one and go with the original crossmember which appears to still be there and get a straightforward dropped axle setup. That will keep you out of the "hokey", awkward territory that some cars end up in.

    Don't give up!
     
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  30. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,146

    F&J
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    QUOTE: "I just picked up my dream hotrod project. "

    "My plans are to run exactly what I have here and do a 50's- 60's period traditional style hotrod. "

    "Not a rat rod but not a 6 figure show car. Two teenage kids and an Ex-wife will make sure of that. "



    Mike, don't lose your dream, despite lack of funds or experience...or daring to fix a very sketchy old heap. Someone tried their best, with what they had for ability, to build a old hot rod.


    Most people will say you "must" scrap the whole chassis. Some might feel they should say they could save it, but don't dare post here, for fear of being called a "hack".


    I have been called a hack, but don't care. I'd fix it, if possible. ( I honestly can't spot what you said about rails are twisted) I like oddball old builds "IF" they can be rebuilt "safely".

    My point is, that if you throw away most of the car, now you have nothing to work with, due to lack of funds. My other point is that anyone can bolt together a 32 style chassis with spring-above, funds permitting, but it won't look any different that your typical modern bellybutton recreation of an "old hot rod"

    If the frame rails are not twisted beyond repair, I'd start with the front crosmember mess. LOTS of dirty cutting and grinding, but the front crossmember needs to go. Then build one that has the center spring mount higher, to get the car lower in front. If it was mine, I'd keep it a "spring ahead", because I love the look if done correctly on an old build. By the way, I can now see it is a 35-36 front axle. The I beam itself is same from 33 to 36, the split bones are 35/36 only.

    The frame mounted brackets at the rear of the split bones needs redo, not a big deal. I'd also run the bent bones if they are not structurely damaged from bending.

    As one poster said, they welded Model A rear spring hanger mounts to a later V8 rear axle. I'd want to check out how well it was welded. The rest of the mess near the rear can be cleaned up and braced, with a lot more grinding/welding.

    Let the hate begin... :)
     

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