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Primer and self etcing primer for laquer?

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by porknbeaner, Jun 16, 2011.

  1. So here is the deal. I am getting ready to do metal prep to paint a project that is in the garage.

    I am using laquer to paint this one. I have acrilic laquer in the color that I want but no primer. I haven't shot any laquer in 30 or so years. I haven't purchased primer yet.

    I will have a lot of bare metal and it will need to be block sanded prior to color.

    So here is my question. Is there a high build laquer primer? Can I use epoxy primer under it then laquer primer once the epoxy has cured? Is there a self etching primer that I can or should use or do I need to pickle the metal the old fashioned way with acid prior to shooting primer?

    OK I guess that is several questions. I just want to get my ducks in a row before I start the task of getiing things ready to paint.

    Thanks
     
  2. stubbsrodandcustom
    Joined: Dec 28, 2010
    Posts: 1,408

    stubbsrodandcustom
    ALLIANCE MEMBER
    from Spring tx

    Think you can use self etching, then laquer... I dont know if there is high build laquer primer....
     
  3. 37 caddy
    Joined: Mar 4, 2010
    Posts: 399

    37 caddy
    Member
    from PEI Canada

    Hi there,i use a DTM primer,direct to metal epoxy based,real good stuff,is a high build primer,can be sanded in about 4 hours,mix ratio is 4-1 as a really high build,4-1-1 as a nice sprayable medium build,4-1-2 as a sealer,you mix the extra part as reducer.i would propably try a small part first to make sure the lacquer does not react with it,it shouldnt be a problem.the stuff i use is made by a company called 5 star. HTH Harveyb
     
  4. pimpin paint
    Joined: May 31, 2005
    Posts: 4,937

    pimpin paint
    Member
    from so cal

    Hey,

    Lacquer based paint products don't " play well with others "!

    The mechanical "tooth'' a lacquer based product would have over an epoxy jus' slaps of trouble. I'd go with an acid wash with metal prep, and follow this with primer-surfacer in a lacquer based product.


    " Meahwhyle, back aboard The tainted Pork "
     

  5. old_dan
    Joined: Nov 16, 2010
    Posts: 46

    old_dan
    Member

    I'm not a real fan of self etching primers. Yeah....it eliminates a step, but they usually contain some phosphoric acid for the etch. The process depends on the acids reacting with moisture from the air. If you are shooting on a dry day all of the acid might not fully convert. I'd prep the metal with whatever you like for pickling the metal....neutralize it with a soda wash, then prime it. I think just about any epoxy primer should stand up to the solvents in your lacquer, but....try out a test piece to make sure.

    Dan
     
  6. overspray
    Joined: Jan 14, 2003
    Posts: 1,232

    overspray
    Member

    Etch primers contain NO acid. The reducer that mixes with it is around 5% phosphoric acid and usually mixed at a ratio of 1 part primer and 1 part reducer. That means that there is around 2 1/2% phosphoric acid in the final ready to spray product. I like the mild etch primer, as it has some solids in it. The acid converts with rust (iron oxide) and forms iron phosphate. It will also convert with the solids in the primer so it really isn't acid after a short time, as it has converted to something else noncorrosive. If you have your steel clean and have removed the rusty surface, (I,m talking a model A that has been in the field for 40 years), by sandblasting or another process, you probably have some rust left in the pores of the metal. You can use a metal conditioner or pickling stuff which is around 12% phosphoric acid, to prep and phosphate the metal or an etch primer, but not both.

    As for lacquer use today, you can get a nice job if you research the products needed. Lacquer is not compatible with a lot of newer urethanes and epoxies. The solvents may be too agressive for some epoxies and the lacquer won't bite into good urethane primer. Check your system and see what is reccommended. The last time I did a job like this, I used etch primer on the steel followed by a good quality urethane hi build primer. When it came time to paint I used a lacquer sealer like Dupont Velvaseal or PPG sealer 70. These may not even be available anymore. The big advantage in this was the fact that by using a catalyzed primer instead of a lacquer primer, the lacquer dried faster as it didn't soak lacquer solvent all the way thru the (lacquer) primer. It was ready to buff in a few days as opposed to a few weeks.

    The down side is if you repair or spot paint an area later, the lacquer will show a ring or edge where the urethane or catalyzed primer and the new repair meet as the primer won't soak solvent and swell but the lacquer will. It still can be done, but it requires some patience and care.

    I'm starting to remember why I don't use lacquer any more.
     
  7. old_dan
    Joined: Nov 16, 2010
    Posts: 46

    old_dan
    Member

    OK....I'll buy Overspray's reasoning on use of self etching primer. I would pay close attention to the product label with regard to temperature and humidity for application.

    So...why are you using lacquer?
     
  8. 2 reasons, aesthetics to start with. Nothing looks like lacquer granted Acrylic Lacquer doesn't have the same depth as th older [I am going to get this wrong I always do] Nitrocellulose Lacquer but it still looks different than anything else you can shoot.

    The second reason being that I have the lacquer already, I am in cheap wouldn't be a good sentiment, but I really don't have a lot invested in it if that makes anyone feel better.

    Well I just thought of another reason, so 3 reasons. It is not nearly as deadly as the newer paints on the market. In a lot of trades we have developed things that are "good for the environment" but bad for the technician. Although that concern is not real high on my list at all. I don't have that many good years left anyway.

    The main reason is number one, I like the look of it.

    Thanks for the input.

    Oh I ment to say something so P.S. We don't get many dry days around here unless it is the dead of winter and below 20 degrees out.
     
  9. old_dan
    Joined: Nov 16, 2010
    Posts: 46

    old_dan
    Member

    All good reasons....after I asked, I started thinking about it. I have covered a few fabric airplanes over the years. The "dope" that I used is really just nitrocellulose lacquer paint. It is forgiving, and a few coats with wet sanding in between really does give good depth of color. The spray gun is pretty easy to clean up too.

    Good luck with it.

    Dan
     
  10. KrisKustomPaint
    Joined: Apr 20, 2007
    Posts: 1,107

    KrisKustomPaint
    Member


    So it doesn't contain acid, but it contains 2.5 % acid?
     
  11. smokey3550
    Joined: Oct 30, 2008
    Posts: 91

    smokey3550
    Member
    from texas

    Back in my bodyshop days, we used self-etching primer like dupont variprime, then laquer primer sprayed wet on wet ( no need to sand the variprime if applied w/in 12 hours) 3 wet coats primer, block sand, re prime 3 wet coats laquer primer block sand, etc, etc, etc till your arm bout falls off. Final sand w/ 400 to 500 grit wet, seal w/ an acrylic lacquer sealer, apply top coats and start sanding again. Only drawback (besides the horrendous amount of labor) is laquer jobs will all check in a couple years due to the lead being taken out in the early eighties.
     
  12. smokey
    Part of my paint is gold metalic (same as a '66 grand prix). Someone told me that you couldn't color sand it because it is metalic. It seems to me that we color sanded it but I could be mistaken.

    Got any insite on that?
     
  13. 40StudeDude
    Joined: Sep 19, 2002
    Posts: 9,461

    40StudeDude
    Member

    Pn'B...Here's what worked for me...when we did the top on my bro's Cadillac, I took it down to bare metal, then sealed it with PPG's DP50 (not available anymore), knocked out a couple of half moons, filled 'em and used PPG's NCP 250 primer (don't know if it's available any more)...then I sprayed some left-over Studebaker line green lacquer I had sitting around for about ten years or so...then I found my can of '56 Packard Turqouise lacquer and laid out some flames...then I pulled out the old can of Candy Organic Green and taped out more flames and spider-webbed then on...then I used up what was left of my quart of flip-flop pearl on more flames. Then I took the new a quart of lacquer clear and sprayed that on top of all of it...let it sit for a week before I got the buffer out...

    Yeah, ya can't see much in this pic, but it's the only one of the process I got...

    [​IMG]

    Well, it's been on the car for over 6 years now...and still looks good without any lifting, popping, bubbling problems...and I just buffed it out again last month, for the summer.

    Like I said, it worked for me...but don't know if the new PPG DP50LF (lead-free) will for you...

    R-
     
  14. smokey3550
    Joined: Oct 30, 2008
    Posts: 91

    smokey3550
    Member
    from texas

    You're correct. We would spray laquer clear over the metalics and commence the color sanding.
     
  15. pimpin paint
    Joined: May 31, 2005
    Posts: 4,937

    pimpin paint
    Member
    from so cal

    Hey,

    Many are the metalic lacquer jobs that I've coloursanded! It's when you start getting into larger flake & pearl jobs that additional clear must be added. Most oem lacquer finishes prior to the mid-late 70s were single stage (no additional clear coat added) it wasn't until paint companies sold the world on the fucking clear coat finishes that the paint prices started to clime & the problems really started:mad:

    Paint co. reps. & politicans will be the first to swing from the rope when I become king:D
     
  16. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,223

    F&J
    Member


    I read all your posts for good info..... I really like that one :)
     
  17. chopolds
    Joined: Oct 22, 2001
    Posts: 5,955

    chopolds
    Member
    from howell, nj
    1. Kustom Painters

    You can use HOK epoxy primer safely with lacquer. I did a 53 Merc over 25 years ago with black NITRO lacquer, and it held up for quite some time, just started showing it's age about 5 years ago. HOK still sells lacquer (I believe) and it's primers should all be compatible.
     
  18. jbrittonjr
    Joined: Sep 10, 2009
    Posts: 105

    jbrittonjr
    Member

    For what it's worth, the local Autozone is selling quart cans of Dupli-color lacquer paint. Dupli-color has a specific primer for their topcoats.
    Many years ago I was taught that bare metal should be treated with phosphate prior to priming. At that time I used to use a lot of NAPA / Martin Senour Triple Etch (6877).
     
  19. Acrylic Lacquer is traditional on my `64 Riviera. So what was traditional before `64?
     
  20. kroozn1
    Joined: Dec 10, 2004
    Posts: 144

    kroozn1
    Member

    X2!

    And they have pretty much switched to a different sandpaper grit grading system too.

    I used color sand lacquer jobs with 600 grit before polishing. If you go ask for 600 grit today you are going to get P600. P600 sure isn't a color sanding grit.
    Here is a chart I grabbed off the web showing the old grit grading system with the new "P" grits we get today. The grits under 240 seem to be the same.


    MICROGRITS
    Very Fine ISO/FEPA CAMI
    ------------------------- P240 ---------- 240
    ------------------------- P280
    ------------------------- P320
    ------------------------- P360
    Extra fine
    ------------------------------------------ 320
    ------------------------- P400
    ------------------------- P500
    ------------------------------------------ 360
    ------------------------- P600
    Super fine
    ------------------------------------------ 400
    ------------------------- P800
    ------------------------------------------ 500
    ------------------------- P1000
    ------------------------------------------ 600
    ------------------------- P1200
    Ultra fine
    ------------------------- P1500 --------- 800
    ------------------------- P2000 --------- 1000
    ------------------------- P2500
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2011

  21. NAPA still sells Actylic Lacquer by the gallon around here. The law in MO is funny the way it is written. You can still shoot lacquer here as long as you are not a professional painter. I won't have any trouble convincing anyone that I am not a pro if I get caught. ;)

    Rog,
    I remember that car. He is still driving it, how cool is that. I'll check on the primer and add the info to this thread just for everyone's information.
     
  22. F&J
    Joined: Apr 5, 2007
    Posts: 13,223

    F&J
    Member

    Larger painters supply places sometimes still have old stock of laquer hi-build lost on a shelf in the back... One place was glad to sell the last 2 gallons to a friend for 25 each.

    I buy it at swaps when I see it. I only have 3 gals left, and a 5 gal bucket of non hi-build Ditzler

    I also have a bunch of toners and poly, so I will mix my own color.
     
  23. With toners and poly you could feasibly do real candy paint. I would paint the Stude candy red over gold if I could get my hands on something that looked like the real deal. I don't really care for the new candy paint it just doesn't look the same.
     
  24. pimpin paint
    Joined: May 31, 2005
    Posts: 4,937

    pimpin paint
    Member
    from so cal


    Hey,

    Acrylic resin technology came to paint products in the late 50's ( I wanna say 1958) that's when acrylic enamel replaced synthetic enamel resins in automotive finishes. Prior to acrylic lacquer , nittocellulose lacquer was used. Synthetic enamel wasn't used much by early kustom & hot rod builders because of the long/dust free drying times required by it.

    " Do not reach greedily for the Kool-Aid "
     
  25. pimpin paint
    Joined: May 31, 2005
    Posts: 4,937

    pimpin paint
    Member
    from so cal

     
  26. Onemansjunk
    Joined: Nov 30, 2008
    Posts: 225

    Onemansjunk
    Member
    from Modesto,CA

    Dupont had a self-etching primer""VARI-PRIME"" I used on my truck 20 years ago ! It was a 2-part-----nasty yellow in quart can and a clear glass bottle !!! You mixed it together and applied over bare metal. The over-spray and vapor's stayed in air like a fog---The next day I applied Dupont gray primer #131S --after I lightly scuffed with 220 grit dry to remove any dust particles----I applied the primer 131S----One coat at a time allowing the lacquer thinner to escape between coats!!!!! that is the key to LACQUER allow it to dry between coats so not to trap the thinner !!!! The truck has faded--the years have gone by in the hot sun---parked outside-- no lacquer check--- Some say i should strip it back down---WHY!!!!! Go for it-- Mr. PorknBeaner
     
  27. banditomerc
    Joined: Dec 18, 2005
    Posts: 2,304

    banditomerc
    Member

    And i'll hold the rope! :D
     
  28.  
  29. pimpin paint
    Joined: May 31, 2005
    Posts: 4,937

    pimpin paint
    Member
    from so cal

     
  30. carcrazyjohn
    Joined: Apr 16, 2008
    Posts: 4,844

    carcrazyjohn
    Member
    from trevose pa

    Look into durabuild primer ,,Im still doing my cars in the 70's style and durabuild is laquer based primer................
     

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