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Pre prepping frame for paint issues

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 56 ford custom, Jul 7, 2013.

  1. 2racer
    Joined: Sep 1, 2011
    Posts: 960

    2racer
    Member

    Exactly, other types of enamels have their own reducers or thinners and hardners that are designed to work with that type of paint.

    Earl Sheib use to advertise factory baked enamel because that stuff takes 8-12 hours before it's not tacky if you don't put it in an oven.

    Your primer could still be soft enough for you to peal it off if it is thick enough, it could take some more time before it gets hard enough for sanding.
     
  2. nexxussian
    Joined: Mar 14, 2007
    Posts: 3,240

    nexxussian
    Member



    I am working on an OT project with a different brand of paint, XO Rust brand Alkyd Enamel, basically True Value hardware store tractor paint.

    I'm using mineral spirits for thinner (rustoleum may not like that, dunno).

    I just picked up a product called "Japan Drier" that is supposed to make it cure faster.

    I have yet to shoot a test panel with the Japan Drier in the mix, so I can't attest to how much faster it cures.

    It's Klean Strip brand, picked it up at Home Despot, the can says 2-4 Oz per gallon of paint, it's a 16 Oz can.

    So I've been looking for mix meausuring cup that is the size of a shot glass (all the paint stores here used to have them, can I find one now? NooOOOoo :mad:).

    After all I don't want to accelerate the whole can, just one batch at a time (starting with just enough to test how much I need to add to get it to dry faster).
     
  3. theHIGHLANDER
    Joined: Jun 3, 2005
    Posts: 8,197

    theHIGHLANDER
    Member

    FWIW, a rattle can cap is 4oz.
     
  4. A kitchen quarter-cup measure is 2 oz - there are 4 Tablespoons in a quarter cup, so if you wanted to test a quart that would be 1-2 Tablespoons

    There are 3 teaspoons in a Tablespoon, if you want to break it down into smaller test amounts.
     
  5. chopolds
    Joined: Oct 22, 2001
    Posts: 5,911

    chopolds
    Member
    from howell, nj
    1. Kustom Painters

    NOT good advice. Look up your tech sheets for alkyd enamel. That stuff stays soft for years!
    My old partner is a shop was a real cheapskate, and painted his 54 with alkyd. 4-5 years later, he was leaning on the fender, and when he moved away from it, you could see the imprint of his demin jeans on the paint.
    Hardener does just that...it DOES make the paint harder. Also helps cure th paint, so recoating sometime in the future is possible. If you dont' use it, the paint may (usually) wrinkle when recoating it, even with the same paint, even a year later.
    56 Ford, your problems are all related to not listening to qualified paint guys. If you want to do a good job, you need to
    1. spend money. THis can be an expensive hobby, and even more so if you try and cut corners..then you buy things TWICE.
    2. Stop listening to the rat rod contingent. There are always ways to do thing cheaper, but most times, they don't last, or even work out right in the first place. Trying a mish mash of non automotive products, WITHOUT knowledge or experience will most likely end in failure!
    Rustoleum, tractor paint all the cheap ways out may or may not work in the long run, I would not know, I never use them. In most cases I've seen them look bad, and perform poorly. But I'm sure in some circumstances they may work well. I've seen things guys say theyt did and came out great, but to my eye they didn't look all that good. And most of these characters sell off their builds so fast, they'd never know if it would last or not anyway!
    3. Use proven products made for the job you're doing. I always use automotive based stuff, as that's what I'm used to using, and when done right, it's almost foolproof. That is not to say industrial paints won't work. I'm not crazy about using them either.
    4. Try to use some commons sense when using paint products. Using the same brand throughout your build will increase chances of success. Mixing and matching products is a real gamble. ESPECIALLY when mixing and matching thinners/reducers/hardeners with different brand paints! That's a big mistake! The chemical processes, mix ratios, temperature related products are carefully formulated to work together to give you the best outcomes, in looks and lasting results. Follow the manufacturers instructions to a T and you should have good results. Using different brands might involve different chemistries, or mix ratios, that will NOT give a good outcome. And it's expensive to make these mistakes.

    Yeah, I know this will piss of a lot of you off, but I've been doing custom body and paint for over 30 years, and some of my jobs are still looking good, that I did back int he beginning.

    Even when I was learning, I listened to the older guys and saved up a bit longer to buy quality products to use, so I only did things once and came out nice. Even while working on a Burger King paycheck!
     
  6. http://www.toolking.com/valspar-18-4625-hp-8-oz-enamel-hardener/
    This ^^^ is the hardner you want for "rustoleum" or most any other oil based or alkyd enamel. Read the msds and you will see this contains ISOs same as any other hardner and wanting to use it requires a commitment on proper respirator.
    With this product you can wet sand and rub your hardware store enamel job in about 3 days give or take. You can also use this in the primer.

    Read the can or tech sheet for proper spray application thinner to use.

    We still don't have a clear answer on this:
    What exactly is not adhereing
    Is it only the final coat lifting off the first? (You went out of the window without sanding between coats )
    Is it the first coat lifting off the metal? ( bad prep work on the metal and you'll need to start over or say fuckit )
    If it truly is isolated to one spot, it may be a localized contamination and just that spot needs to sanded back and revisited.

    You'll want to watch the recoat window times. Too early and you'll have wrinkle lifting problems, too late and you'll have to wait for full cure and then sand for adhesion. Missing the end of the window and NOT DOING this will result in the very same problem you are experiencing.

    The hardware store type or tractor type paints can give decent results, but its not idiot proof.
    You can also get very presentable results with the stuff if you have more time than money and a patient disposition and love the abuse. I use it on stuff that gets beat up anyway and needs reprainted in a few years anyway. Like dump trucks, trailers, table legs, fleet bumpers, trailer hitches, heavy equipment, semi-trailer repairs, automotive under bodies , and the like. They get the snot beat out of them and if there were $10,000 coating or a $50.00 coating it would need a new paint job in 2-3 years no matter what you did.

    Just for shuts and giggles and investigative purposes- I painted my box trailer with tractor supply paint. It was blasted, dollied and filled, primed with rustolem (+ hardener linked above), block sanded, painted with tractor supply enamel (+ hardener linked above) Even wet sanded and rubbed it!!! Two coats of wax & It looked very nice (driver high quality) and was cheap to do. It's been 3 years out side with zero attention, and still looks really damn nice but the orange stripe has faded.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2013
  7. Ok im not sure if you were referring to me as cutting corners and being cheap? Listening to the "rat rod contingent" well thats a no to all of that. Not me..sorry.I personally cant stand the "rat rod crap" look. I had went to a paint shop in Whittier, Ca (Bob Downey) They had told me this would work well with what im doing and I wouldnt have any issues. No I have never painted a frame before but there is always room to learn.. right? There has to be a way to resolve the problem or issue here. Alao its a truck not a points vehicle for a show. Im building a nice daily driver that will look good and I wont be afraid to use it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2013
  8. The key to getting any products to work is to read the literature that the paint companies supply with everything these days (either from the paint store or online) to make sure you are getting compatible products. Rustoleum recommends a thinner, their 333402, and a little research shows that it is straight Acetone. What you bought is 80% Acetone and 20% Methyl Acetate so not what the manufacturer recommends. You have also bought a polyurethane hardener rather than a enamel one (like 31 Vicky recommended).

    If you got this stuff from the recommendations of a paint store I would find a new store. A paint store that sells you what they have rather than what you need is not one you want to do business with.
     
  9. K13,

    Thanks for the help!

    Anyone in Southern California near the Whittier 99604 area or nearby surrounding cities that can recommend a good paint store?
     
  10. I'm surprised you didn't get a little more insight from your other 47 "how to paint" threads.
    #1 - prep
    #2- compatibility
    #3 - tech sheets
     
  11. I dont mean to be rude or anything like that but im trying to learn to paint and the prep work. I really dont need sarcasm or anything of the sort. Help and tips are great! Thanks guys.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2013
  12. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/search.php?searchid=7134030

    Your right its not 47 threads involving paint, prep, or coatings - it's 51 of them.

    I'm not being sarcastic, I'm trying to help. Like everyone else in the other threads but it seems to be going someplace else besides giving you the help you need.
     
  13. mikhett
    Joined: Jan 22, 2005
    Posts: 1,412

    mikhett
    Member
    from jackson nj

    I would use epoxy primer and NO METAL PREP!Epoxy primer doesnt like the acid in MP.
     
  14. mikhett
    Joined: Jan 22, 2005
    Posts: 1,412

    mikhett
    Member
    from jackson nj

    use automotive paint products.
     
  15. Look if you are here to call me out on everything I dont need that. Im trying to learn and ask questions. My first time having a frame blasted and painting it myself. Im trying to save the primer I had sprayed on the frame. Now that I know I was sold the wrong hardner I can find the right one and re prep the primer then shoot the gloss. Its just hard when you hear one person say this way then another a different way.
     
  16. And I have striped too many to count that were rusting peeling or chalking out, or a combination of failures.

    If the primer on it now is compromised for any reason, and you prime/paint over it, odds are it will fail.
     
  17. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 28,800

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER


    Alkyd enamel is basically porch and deck paint or used on industrial items like the framework on a piece of equipment in an industrial plant.
    It dries hard on it's own but takes a long time to dry. I use a different brand but basically the same thing on the bottom of my sailboat and I put a coat on and wait a couple of days for it to dry good before putting another coat on but most of it has been on there ten years and holds up great.

    I think the big issue is that you tried to use some of this and some of that and they didn't mix well. I'd give it a few days and see if it does dry and set up hard or is still soft and needs to be stripped and redone right.
     
  18. Thats exactly whatvi think. Im thinking just get acetone like I have neen told here and its about 4 ounces to every quart. Then ger the right hardner for the gloss black.
     
  19. young'n'poor
    Joined: Jan 26, 2006
    Posts: 1,280

    young'n'poor
    Member
    from Anoka. MN

    Are you gonna strip it down to metal and start over?


    Posted using the Full Custom H.A.M.B. App!
     
  20. I really didnt want to do that but as of right now im really nor sure what I should do. I cant find any automotive paint suppliers near where I stay, by the time im off of work most are closed and not opened weekends.
     
  21. You can find straight acetone at pretty much any home improvement store. I am not sure about the hardener you will probably need a paint store for that or order online.
     
  22. Well the hardener is just for the gloss correct?
     
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    If this is where you got your paint I would take it back and tell them to make it all one brand.
     
  24. Yes aka Bob Downey & Sons. I used half the gallon of primer and reducer so I dont think that is returnable. Only things I havent used is the hardener and the gloss black. Its been like a month since they were purchased I believe.
     
  25. hotrod40coupe
    Joined: Apr 8, 2007
    Posts: 2,562

    hotrod40coupe
    Member

    If you want expert advice go to D'Angelos Paint. They have a store in Costa Mesa, Alhambra and several other locations around Southern California. Look them, up on the internet. We aren't trying to bust your balls but you have been given some good advice and you tend to want to argue. The bottom line is: Use QUALITY AUTOMOTIVE paint from the same manufacturer and follow their directions to the letter. Trying to save what you have already done is going to bite you in the ass later on down the road. And quite saying it's JUST A TRUCK!
     
  26. Well am I going to have to have this frame completely sand blasted again?
     
  27. ^^^^^I've followed this thread for a while, and I have to completely agree with this. Just file the "Rustoleum Experiment" under the Lessons Learned file. Hey, we've all been there. Sometimes the experiments work bitchin', other times they don't. It hurts your wallet to give up on something and try again, but I think you'll be 100% satisfied with an automotive product that is used EXACTLY the way the manufacturer specifies. You're going to hear tons of advice from some very well-meaning people, but please....play it safe and do it by the book.
     
  28. To me you have to decide if the possibility of having to redo this somewhere down the road out weighs redoing it now and spending more money. No one can say for sure if it will last or not. Lots of guy have had success with these types of products and lots haven't. The concern I would have at this point is the fact that you did not use a hardener in the primer you put down and it may continue to move under the hardened top coat which could lead to a failure down the road.

    If you want to take the chance and move forward I would do this. I would sand back the bad spot to a point where you have good adhesion. I would reprime the problem spot and then the whole frame using a hardener in the primer. If it doesn't react and wrinkle let it dry for a few days. Sand as per manufactures recommendations to top coat. I would then do a test area of the top coat with hardener and see if it reacts. If it is fine paint the whole frame. This DOESN"T guarantee it will not fail a week, a month or a year down the road that is the risk you would take by moving ahead with what you have now. It also doesn't guarantee it won't work and last for years either.

    At this point it is really just your time that you are going to be out if it fails at any point because you already have the product but you need to figure out if your time and the aggravation of possibly having to redo it after the whole vehicle is back together again is worth the risk.
     
  29. You are absolutely right! Im jist really frustrated and bummed out that I was given the wrong info and materials from a reputable paint store. Now im worse off and have to pay for a blaster to strip it all over again.
     
  30. nexxussian
    Joined: Mar 14, 2007
    Posts: 3,240

    nexxussian
    Member

    TY both, I was just trying to find one of the cups so I didn't have to raid the kitchen (project isn't hung on paint right now, so I'm working on other parts).

    I used to have several of them, can I find 'em now?!?!
     

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