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Hot Rods Pontiac Superduty 421 experts

Discussion in 'The Hokey Ass Message Board' started by 1961 Poncho, Feb 20, 2017.

  1. carbking
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 2,753

    carbking
    Member

    If you go back and read my post about the pump jet extension, you will note that I did not say it did not exist; rather that Carter didn't make it. And they didn't, it was aftermarket.

    Carter build the 3-barrel strictly for NASCAR racing (you know, rolling start), so there would have been no reason for the extension.

    I actually have custody of the original Carter prints and drawings for this unit.

    Jon
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
  2. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 28,424

    loudbang
    Member

    That's a beauty and has the "bathtub" intake too.

    [​IMG]
     
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  3. choptop40
    Joined: Dec 23, 2009
    Posts: 3,576

    choptop40
    Member

    Ask Charlie Pontiac ......
     
  4. 1961 Poncho
    Joined: Feb 19, 2017
    Posts: 134

    1961 Poncho
    Member
    from Las Vegas

    Ever find that file ? Pm me if you do.
    PMD rocks!




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  5. stuart in mn
    Joined: Nov 22, 2007
    Posts: 1,746

    stuart in mn
    Member

    Here are the "special engine and chassis parts" pages from the 1961 factory parts catalog (the scans are a little small and hard to read, but I had to reduce them to get the size down for posting online.) That year you had to buy any SD parts over the counter. The thing that amazes me about this list is they sold rear end gears all the way down to 6.14:1.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  6. 1961 Poncho
    Joined: Feb 19, 2017
    Posts: 134

    1961 Poncho
    Member
    from Las Vegas

    PONTIACand the 421 SUPER DUTY ENGINES Only in the muscle car era could something like an engine attain celebrity, and even cult-like, status. While the standard engines of the day always had their sizes bandied about by car lovers, when the horsepower and cubic inch races began in the early-‘60s, the real wars were on– who could out do the other? Ford had a 390, then introduced a 406.... Chevy, which had a boat anchor 348, countered with a 409. Pontiac was pushing a 389, Chrysler a 383, Oldsmobile a 394. But as with Ford and Chevy, the goal was the over-400 mark for all. Pontiac really raised the bar when it introduced the now famous 421. Of course, when you wave a red flag at a bunch of bulls, they don’t just sit there.... soon Chrysler was pumping out 440s and even a reintroduced hemi of 426 cubes. Ford came back with 427s, 428s, 429s and Chevy with 427s also... would it ever end? Well, it certainly peaked with Cadillac, even though they weren’t competing in racing, with 472s and finally a 500 cubic incher. There were many other engines in between all these sizes, and many that were pretty amazing pieces of machinery. However, the Pontiac 421 was one of the more unique, as its goal was actually the introduction of a “public version” to then allow the racing Super Duty versions they really wanted. This wasn’t anything new to the auto industry when they were involved in NASCAR and NHRA racing. Those organization rules required that certain numbers of street versions be made before they would be allowed into the racing pits. The thought was this would eliminate factories from just pulling out the financial stops to develope race-only equipment. Did it work? Well, yes and no. On the surface it “looked” like the race machines were only super tuned versions of a street engine. And in some cases this may have been true. But not so with the 421 Super Duty engine. Perhaps it was Pontiac’s long history of “back-door” funding and supplying of racing parts, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to notice that a 421 Super Duty ain’t your Mama’s errand car. A 421 Super Duty equipped Pontiac on the street is about as out of sorts as a dinosaur in a petting zoo. Pontiac had certainly pulled out the stops with this engine... and got away with it. The rest is history– winning history! Pontiac was cleaning up everywhere with the 421 SD, and it wasn’t just because this was a big engine. Oh, it was big, but it was also everything the racer could want in feeding, breathing, venting, and ground stomping Don Gay’s ‘62 421 Super Duty Catalina– 1963 NHRA National Champion strength. Pontiac had designed this engine to win, and to stay together to come back and win again and again. It certainly earned a reputation for raw power and brute strength. The Pontiac Super Duty aficionados know that the Super Duty package didn’t stop with the engine either. The sky was pretty much the limit as to what you could get in the form of aluminum body parts, windows, and more. And, the “average Joe” could waltz into his dealership and drive out with a car that said “I dare you” to every other one on the street. Although most “Joes” only had real racing on their mind, not street prowling; but, it had to appear as so. Today, the best most of us can do is enjoy the sights and sounds of these magnificent Pontiacs at car shows and race events. The price has been driven up to the same heights as their power levels. Unless you are one of the few who grabbed one early and held on to it, be ready to part with your house or 401k to buy one now. Since returning from Norwalk this past summer, I got to looking around to see what I had in the files on the introduction of the 421 Super Duty. I found the following write-up by Mark Arnold of Tennessee. It is a very good summary of the 1962 SD introduction and its continuation into 1963. Some further research produced two great articles by Consumer Guide on both a 1962 and a 1963 Super Duty Pontiac. I hope you enjoy them all, and especially enjoy reminiscing about this bygone era of Pontiac’s history. In 1962 Pontiac released to the public the highest factory rated horsepower engine they ever made, the Super Duty 421. This engine was rated at 405 horsepower, although Motor Trend tester Roger Huntington felt the actual output was closer to 465 horsepower. The purpose of these engines was to assure Pontiac’s big dominance in NHRA Super Stock racing. The engines were only part of a package installed in the Catalina line, with a few (16) being placed in the new 1962 Grand Prix. Standard with the Super Duty 421 was the dual 4-barrel carburetor setup, high flow exhaust manifolds, heavy-duty 3-speed manual transmission, 4.30 rear axle ratio, and a high speed drive shaft. Optional parts included many lightweight body panels such as aluminum hoods, fenders, front bumper and radiator brackets. Another unusual option was the aluminum manifolds, not intended for street use because under continuous use, they would melt! Composed of many high strength components, the engines were made to withstand the rigors of racing. The basis for the engine was a 421 block bored oversize 0.030” with 4-bolt bearing caps. Relief for the large diameter intake valves was machined in the tops of the bores. The crankshaft was heat-treated forged alloy steel especially machined for high-speed durability. Forged aluminum pistons and heat-treated connecting rods were used in the reciprocating assembly. In combination with the pistons, the head provided an 11.0 to 1 compression ratio. These heads had 1.92” intake valves and 1.66” exhaust valves. Optional were dealer installed heads with valve diameters of 2.02” and 1.76”, respectively. The standard Super Duty heads included 1.65 rocker arms and heavy-duty valve springs. These standard valve springs were good to 5500 RPM, with higher load springs available for competition use. Valve actuation was provided by the McKellar #10 grind camshaft. This camshaft was a solid lifter type with 308 intake duration and 320 exhaust duration. Topping off the engine was a dual 4-barrel intake manifold with large bore carburetors. A tri-power setup or a large 4-barrel could also be had as options. The single 4-barrel was necessary to meet NASCAR rules. Other special components included high-pressure fuel and oil pumps, a special starter for clearance with the exhaust, deep groove pulleys for the generator and fan, lightened flywheel and heavy-duty clutch. Super Duty engines were made until 1963 when GM withdrew from factory supported racing. The Super Duty engines won many victories for Pontiac in NHRA and NASCAR competition during their active period and are a valuable piece of automotive history. Pontiac 421 Super Duty Introduction By: Mark Arnold 1962 Pontiac Catalina Super Duty 421 By the Auto Editors of Consumer Guide The engine most identified with Pontiac’s proud Super Duty label was the 421-cid V-8. It was an incredibly powerful muscle car engine– the 1962 Pontiac Catalina Super Duty 421 was proof of that. Hand-built in a special factory tool room, the first Catalina Super Duty 421 was for the track– but had to sell this muscle car in showrooms to qualify for competition. Super Duty 421s debuted late in 1961 as raceonly engines. Pontiac was vague on their output, but estimates ranged from 373 to 405 bhp. These were the largest-displacement mills offered at the time, and they helped spark Detroit’s cubic-inch war. NHRA rules changes for ’62 required engines and body parts for the stock classes to be production pieces. This forced the 421 onto the official equipment sheet as an expensive, limited-run option. Fewer than 180 were built for ’62, its peak production year. Most went into Catalinas, though 16 or so were installed in Pontiac’s new personal-luxury coupe, the Grand Prix. The ’62 Super Duty 421 was officially rated at 405 bhp, but real output was closer to 460. Though street-legal, these again were race-ready engines, with four-bolt mains, forged rods and crank, solid lifters, and NASCAR heads. Stockcar-racing versions used a single four-barrel, but street/strip Super Duty 421s had twin Carter 500-cfm four-barrels and an aluminum intake manifold. Free-flow cast-iron headers were fitted with easily removable exhaust dumps. Only three- and four-speed manuals were offered; Pontiac’s automatic wasn’t strong enough. Reinforcing the division’s hard-nosed performance attitude were a host of Super Duty options, including aluminum front-end body clips and a weight-cutting modified frame (the famous drilled “Swiss Cheese” frames wouldn’t come until ’63). These saved about 110 pounds. To shave another 40 pounds, the factory would fit aluminum exhaust manifolds. They were intended only for quarter-mile competition; Pontiac warned that subjected to more heat, the headers would melt. Super Duty 421 Catalinas were fearsome muscle cars on the street, and could dip into the 13s at more than 100 mph in the quarter– superior numbers for a regular-production car of the day. Street versions of the Super Duty had twin carbs. Super Duty’s tri-tone upholstery looked great, but it wasincongruous in a car so competition-oriented. A lot of drivers saw the rear end of a Super Duty– it could hit 100 mph in a quarter mile. Wheelbase, inches: 120.0 • Weight, lbs: 3,575 • Number built: 172 Base price: $5,100 • Standard EngineType: ohv V-8 • Displacement, cid: 421 Fuel system: 2 x 4bbl. • Compression ratio: 11.0:1 Horsepower @ rpm: 405 @ 5600 • Torque @ rpm: 425 @ 4400 Representative Performance0-60 mph, sec: 5.4 • 1/4 mile, sec. @ mph: 13.9 @ 107.0 1962 Pontiac CatalinaSuper Duty 421Specifications 1963 Pontiac Super Duty 421 By the Auto Editors of Consumer Guide Pontiac poured on so much muscle car performance for ’63 that only an order from the highest power could slow it down. Unfortunately, that’s what happened with the 1963 Pontiac Super Duty 421. Super Duty 421s were back, tougher than ever. Compression jumped from 11.0:1 to 12.0:1, while other tweaks increased maximum shift points by 500 rpm, to a screaming 6400 rpm. The four-barrel version, set up for sustained high speeds, had 390 hp. The dual-quad drag variant– now with aluminum exhaust manifolds standard and steel manifolds optional– was again underrated at 405 hp. A second dual-quad drag rendition was introduced with a 13.0:1 squeeze. Pontiac timidly rated it at 410 hp. Factory weight-cutting again included aluminum front-end pieces and was joined by the famous Swiss Cheese frames, which had grapefruit-sized holes drilled into the chassis rails. Super Duty 421s came only with a Hurst shifted three- or four-speed manual. Axle ratios up to 4.44:1 were offered. Dealers were advised to warn customers to maintain a minimum idle speed of 1000 rpm to insure adequate lubrication; that the engine would be cantankerous in cold weather, noisy all the time, and expensive to run; and that the large-capacity oil pan reduced ground clearance. For those unwilling to take the Super Duty plunge, Pontiac introduced two new 421s that were more streetable. These High Output 421s had 10.75:1 compression and 353 hp with a fourbarrel or 370 hp with three two-barrels. Big Ponchos got new sheetmetal for ’63, highlighted by trend-setting stacked headlamps. Pontiac was a force on the street and strip, while in NASCAR, it fought to retain its crown against the brutal new 427-cid Chevrolets. Stacked headlamps and fresh sheetmetal identified full-size ’63 Pontiacs. Most of the Super Duty 421 engines, including this rare 405-bhp version, went into Catalinas. This four-speed Sports Coupe features the new factory option tachometer. It was all too much for GM. In January 1963, the corporation withdrew from organized racing and killed the Super Duty engines. Just 88 ’63 Super Duty V-8s made it out the door, but Pontiac was poised to open a new performance frontier. 1963 Pontiac CatalinaSuper Duty 421Specifications Wheelbase, inches: 120.0 • Weight, lbs: 3,725 • Number built: 88 Base price: $4,180 • Standard EngineType: ohv V-8 • Displacement, cid: 421 Fuel system: 2 x 4bbl. • Compression ratio: 12.0:1 Horsepower @ rpm: 405 @ 5600 • Torque @ rpm: 425 @ 4400 Representative Performance0-60 mph, sec: 5.2 • 1/4 mile, sec. @ mph: 13.7 @ 107 1962 Pontiac Catalina 421 Super-Duty– Survival Of The Quickest The Saga Of A Super-Clean ’62 421 Super-Duty Survivor http://www.highperformancepontiac.c...62_pontiac_catalina_421_super_duty/index.html MORE SUPER DUTY READING If you still haven’t quenched your thirst for Pontiac 421 Super Duty information, go up on line and read these two interesting articles by High Performance Pontiac Magazine and Hemmings Motor News. Just copy and paste the URLs shown into your browser address bar and hit enter. It will whisk you right to the articles and more exciting photos. 1962 Pontiac Grand Prix 421 Super Duty FEATURE ARTICLE from Hemmings Motor News http://www.hemmings.com/hmn/stories/2006/08/01/hmn_feature9.html Own a Piece of Pontiac History!


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  7. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 28,424

    loudbang
    Member

    First link not working.
     
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  8. bruce brady
    Joined: Jun 14, 2007
    Posts: 9

    bruce brady
    Member

    61 Poncho this is good stuff-- I am a Pontiac guy from Texas - raced GTO 's with 400's and 455's
    Never had a early SD but did find a RA V that now sits in the den. Know of a 61 Catalina project
    car that has a 62 421 with some SD parts - not sure of the #'s. Am thinking of buying but
    not there yet- Will let you know if its available. You coming to Ft. Worth for the POCI in July ??
     
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  9. 1961 Poncho
    Joined: Feb 19, 2017
    Posts: 134

    1961 Poncho
    Member
    from Las Vegas





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  10. 1961 Poncho
    Joined: Feb 19, 2017
    Posts: 134

    1961 Poncho
    Member
    from Las Vegas

    Yes it's a hoot!


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  11. All right Jon color me stupid, what is an idling carb?
     
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  12. 1961 Poncho
    Joined: Feb 19, 2017
    Posts: 134

    1961 Poncho
    Member
    from Las Vegas




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  13. 1961 Poncho
    Joined: Feb 19, 2017
    Posts: 134

    1961 Poncho
    Member
    from Las Vegas

    I will not be coming to the POCI.
    I will be, God willing, be attending the RM auction in Plymouth Michigan where my 61 Ventura will be auctioned off to the highest bidder. I then will officially retire from building classics and go touring the country and other parts of the world.
    That is unless the car is sold prior to that.


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  14. choptop40
    Joined: Dec 23, 2009
    Posts: 3,576

    choptop40
    Member

    Arnie the farmer approved......now go get some groceries with that ride....
     
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  15. loudbang
    Joined: Jul 23, 2013
    Posts: 28,424

    loudbang
    Member

  16. carbking
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 2,753

    carbking
    Member

    Beaner - the link in post 75 answers your question, but I have also sent you a PM.

    Jon.
     
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  17. When I was a kid my uncle that lived with us had a 58 Bonneville. It was said to be the fastest car in Pennsylvania from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia. I always wondered what the engine was, I did manage to keep the original Fuel Injection emblem all these years, took it before the wrecker hauled the car out of our back yard in the 60s. We used to say we never saw anyone pass Uncle Tony, he passed everyone though. Couple of kids in a back seat with no restraint?...........a a aah those were the days.
     
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  18. 1961 Poncho
    Joined: Feb 19, 2017
    Posts: 134

    1961 Poncho
    Member
    from Las Vegas

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  19. I have tried to find a picture of that 58 Bonneville but never had any family members come up with one. It was a 2 door with two tone green and white paint. The interior was like a living room. I'll dig up the fuel injection emblem and post a picture. I was told by some Pontiac guys that was a pretty rare and pricey item on a 58.
     
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  20. F-ONE
    Joined: Mar 27, 2008
    Posts: 2,075

    F-ONE
    Member
    from Alabama

    My grandfather bought a 1961 Starchief 4dr sedan used in 1962. It was a 4 bbl car with a 4 speed Hydro. Doing some engine work on it a few years later, he found that it was a 421, and not a 389.
    He always thought it was a trail or a test car that was released with the 421.
     
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  21. 1961 Poncho
    Joined: Feb 19, 2017
    Posts: 134

    1961 Poncho
    Member
    from Las Vegas

  22. 1961 Poncho
    Joined: Feb 19, 2017
    Posts: 134

    1961 Poncho
    Member
    from Las Vegas

    The sheet metal has been added to the formerly bare body. With the trunk and door done more to be done but hey, it's a good start for two hours work.


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  23. 1961 Poncho
    Joined: Feb 19, 2017
    Posts: 134

    1961 Poncho
    Member
    from Las Vegas

    Pete McCarthy published an excellent book on Super Duty engines of all Years into the Trans Am era.


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  24. mgtstumpy
    Joined: Jul 20, 2006
    Posts: 7,949

    mgtstumpy
    Member

    upload_2017-4-12_17-14-48.png upload_2017-4-12_17-20-14.png upload_2017-4-12_17-21-1.png upload_2017-4-12_17-23-13.png upload_2017-4-12_17-26-19.png upload_2017-4-12_17-27-37.png upload_2017-4-12_17-28-32.png upload_2017-4-12_17-34-22.png upload_2017-4-12_17-38-44.png upload_2017-4-12_17-40-6.png upload_2017-4-12_17-42-6.png

    Ultimate American V-8 Engine Data Book, 2nd Edition
     
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  25. butchcoat1969
    Joined: Apr 1, 2017
    Posts: 165

    butchcoat1969

    I keep hearing how this poncho is super fast and a beast how about some number so I can compare it to the other really fast cars that I kno most think they are lol back in the day it took a lot of time and money to get a car into the mid 10's now u can practically buy one from a dealer that will do it if ur willing to spend the high dollar they cost lol but normally these super fast cars were lucky to run in the low 14's to mid 13's but every now and then there were a few that would turn mid 12's and back then that was considered fast but now that's pretty much the average muscle car today, but I love muscle cars I remember my dad had this big ole 66 Catalina with the extra doors that wasn't fast but on the how u couldn't catch him BC there was no top end in that monster lol, but my 2 favorite ponchos is my dad's bought a brand new 64 Bonney with a three eight nine single four and I loved that car but my altime favorite was my very first car which I wish I still had I bought it for fifty bucks, it was a light yellow sixty five GTO ragtop three eight nine auto power everything black interior the guy rebuilt the engine and foundling get it to start I picked it up brought it home and sure enough it wouldn't start do to all the back firing it was doing lol he had stuck the distributor in a hundred eighty out, I just popped it out turned it around and drove it by his house about two hours after I bought it honking the horn and waving with the top down Lololol best memory I have never for gotten lol


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  26. Hey,
    I need to know: did I read right that you grew up in Pontiac MI?
    You sound familiar to me.
     
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  27. 1961 Poncho
    Joined: Feb 19, 2017
    Posts: 134

    1961 Poncho
    Member
    from Las Vegas

    Yes it's true. I was born in Pontiac Michigan 1945. The Great War was over and my father and grandmother got jobs at Pontiac Motor Division on Joslyn Ave.
    My grandmother retired from PMD after 40 years service so it's in my genes.


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  28. 1961 Poncho
    Joined: Feb 19, 2017
    Posts: 134

    1961 Poncho
    Member
    from Las Vegas

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  29. Well, if that's your mug in the one pic, I could swear I know you from the street scene.
    Joy Fair, Royal, Clyde's Frame, Suzi Q's, Joes Industrial - somewhere...

    Jerry Sidocks Speed Shop up in Waterford/Drayton Plains off of Dixie Hwy maybe?
     
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  30. 1961 Poncho
    Joined: Feb 19, 2017
    Posts: 134

    1961 Poncho
    Member
    from Las Vegas

    Probably not. The family moved up to Standish when I was a year old.
    After I finished my hitch in the Air Force I returned to Michigan in 1967. My family moved to Waterford and I returned to a home I never knew before. It was weird for me.
    I hung out a couple of Years there. Worked for Pontiac Motors for two days and quit because it was loud and stinky and had crazy people working there. Too many Billys
    I the got called to work at Buick parts and service warehouse in Drayton Plains.
    I bought a 63 Corvette SWC from a dude named Dave Keith. Red Dual quads
    Ran it on the street.
    I am related to the family that owns the 300 Bowl.
    Jack Ostrander work there and the 300 sponsored the GUZZLER top fuel rail.
    And drag boat by the same name.
    Any hits?


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