Register now to get rid of these ads!

Technical Plymouth intake identification-dual 4's

Discussion in 'Traditional Hot Rods' started by junkhorder, Dec 24, 2020.

  1. junkhorder
    Joined: Aug 7, 2020
    Posts: 11

    junkhorder

    Hello. Just got into a corvette parts stash. Lots of 60's parts including 6 pair of fuelie heads and 2-L30 327's. Wow, hog heaven. Also came up with what looks to be a 1957 plymouth poly dual 4 intake complete with carbs,feed tubes and linkages. Numbers are- 1822004 , date code L 11 7, Front carb 2631S, Rear carb 2632SA. I believe this is the sleeper in the batch and could use help identifying if all original. Wouldn't chase away ridiculously high offers to buy either. Thanks for the help and stay healthy. See pictures.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. 302GMC
    Joined: Dec 15, 2005
    Posts: 6,923

    302GMC
    Member
    from Idaho

    Intake #s are 1958.
     
  3. Mr48chev
    Joined: Dec 28, 2007
    Posts: 29,795

    Mr48chev
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    I thought you got into some stuff my buddy used to have in his stash before it got sold off.
    He was big on those 318 engines at one time.
    I found this tidbit on Wikipedia
    In 1958, the optional engine was a 350 cu in (5.7 L) called the "Golden Commando" with two four-barrel carburetors producing 305 hp (227 kW). A 315 hp (235 kW) option with fuel injection was available, but the Bendix electronic fuel-injection system was recalled by the factory and owners were given a conventional dual four-barrel setup. The Golden Commando engine was optional on any Plymouth Plaza, Savoy, Belvedere, Suburban, and Fury, as was the dual four-barrel 318 cu in (5.2 L) (dubbed the "V-800 Dual Fury"; four- and two-barrel 318s also arrived for 1958 and were simply called "V-800s").
     
    VANDENPLAS, mgtstumpy and vtx1800 like this.
  4. carbking
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 3,124

    carbking
    Member

    Manifold casting number, according to my records, was used in 1957 and 1958.

    Date code on your manifold would be for 1958, as earlier posted by 302GMC.

    Carbs 2631s and 2632s were used on 1957 and 1958. Tags should have a date code, but cannot read the date codes on your tags.

    I have a professionally restored 1957 unit. Linkage, choke line are the same. Fuel line is different than the 1957 unit that I have.

    Good luck on a "ridiculously high offer" ;)

    Jon.
     
    Hnstray, VANDENPLAS, loudbang and 5 others like this.

  5. Gotgas
    Joined: Jul 22, 2004
    Posts: 6,987

    Gotgas
    Member
    from DFW USA

    It looks like you know what they are now. There is definitely "some" value for that in the '57-59 Plymouth scene, but those guys are usually looking for the '58+ inline 2x4 setup for the B/RB engines using AFBs because that's what was used on Christine.

    But a lot of those cars still have the Plymouth based poly engines, and someone will want it. Try posting it here, with a price.
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/287149461495820/?ref=share
     
    VANDENPLAS and loudbang like this.
  6. chessterd5
    Joined: May 26, 2013
    Posts: 643

    chessterd5
    Member
    from u.s.a.

    Are those the ancient ancestors of the Carter AFB? For us uneducated people? Looks like one has vacuum secondary. How much cfm is that? Or did I miss it in the post earlier?
     
  7. Moriarity
    Joined: Apr 11, 2001
    Posts: 21,633

    Moriarity
    SUPER MODERATOR
    Staff Member

    those are carter WCFB's (white cast four barrel) I do not know the cfms but believe they are something like 400, similar carbs were used on the 2x4 283 chevies in the late 50's up to 61. These are far smaller than the AFB's (aluminum four barrel)
     
  8. It's been a long time since I saw one of those intakes. It was the fall of 1968 was when I was tasked with helping clean all the "junk" out of the attic at the Dodge dealership I was working at and one of those set-ups was in the pile. They had replaced it with a single 4-barrel manifold at the owner's request years earlier and had forgotten about it. I got it for a friend of mine for $20; including air cleaner. Unfortunately; a lot of old Mopar parts including NOS fenders went to the dump that year...
     
    Desoto291Hemi likes this.
  9. carbking
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 3,124

    carbking
    Member

    The WCFB (pictured) was Carter's first four-barrel. One could say these were the AFB's ancestors, however, the "parents" and the "children" were produced concurrently for quite awhile. ;)

    WCFB production 1952 ~ 1967
    AFB production 1957 ~ Carter sold out about 1985

    The WCFB's were in the 375 ~ 500 CFM ballpark (Carter did not specify a rating on most). The Plymouth versions pictured are roughly 15 percent larger than the Chevrolet 283 version.

    The AFB's, depending on which one, were rated from 400 ~ 939 CFM

    The letters WCFB have different meanings to different folks.
    (W)hite (C)ast (F)our (B)arrel
    (W)rought (C)ast (F)our (B)arrel
    (W)ill (C)arter (F)our (B)arrel

    I was once chastised by a couple of my friends at Carter for calling them wrought cast four barrels. My friends informed me in no uncertain terms that the correct designation was Will Carter Four Barrel.

    In retrospect, don't know who coined the wrought cast, but that would have been totally incorrect when the WCFB's were first produced, as the cast iron throttle body did not debut until (I think) 1955. The earlier versions has a white cast throttle body.

    There is no argument on the meaning of AFB - (A)luminum (F)our (B)arrel

    Carter did make a few vacuum secondary carbs, both WCFB and AFB for both Ford and Chrysler for maybe 3 years (don't remember exactly, and too lazy to look) ;) After that, Carter informed both Ford and Chrysler that the vacuum secondaries were entirely too unpredictable AND unreliable, and if Ford or Chrysler wanted Carter 4-barrels they would be made with the Carter auxiliary air valve on the secondary which is far more predicable AND reliable than the vacuum diaphragm.

    The carbs pictured are not vacuum secondary.

    Jon.
     
    Hnstray, 302GMC, loudbang and 4 others like this.
  10. junkhorder
    Joined: Aug 7, 2020
    Posts: 11

    junkhorder

    Hello. Thanks for info. Carb feeds may have made up by a decent mechanic. Does yours have a sediment bowl? What is your opinion on how far to clean up before having people complain. Any idea on value as I don't think much of idiot bay for prices. Thank you.
     
  11. carbking
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 3,124

    carbking
    Member

    Mine does have a Carter glass bowl fuel filter. It is located in front, and the fuel line comes out the front of the filter and has a 90 degree fitting.

    I would suggest either:
    (A) Sell it as is
    (B) Total restoration, which with the condition those carbs appear, is going to be EXPENSIVE!

    With no offense meant, since I am not the seller, and have no interest in buying; I will not opine value.

    Value is that compromise which is agreeable to both seller and buyer.

    Jon.
     
    Hnstray, VANDENPLAS and mgtstumpy like this.
  12. I had one of those things about 50 years ago. Mine was a '57 but looks the same.
    57_Ply.jpg
     
    Hnstray, 302GMC, VANDENPLAS and 3 others like this.
  13. IMG_20200425_200407695.jpg IMG_20200425_200412165 (1).jpg IMG_20200425_200240913 (1).jpg IMG_20200425_200246228.jpg I've got the same manifold with F 14 7 date code and another with date code of c 4 7. No carbs both for sale
     
    Last edited: Dec 24, 2020
  14. As always - thanks for your input Jon !
     
  15. There are a lot more of these set up's around than people that what to invest and run them. I have the big block dual and for the most part - it's not that much in demand as much as the aluminum one's manufactured.
     
  16. junkhorder
    Joined: Aug 7, 2020
    Posts: 11

    junkhorder

    Hello. Will this manifold fit any dodge or chrysler heads/engines of poly design. Thanks for knowledge. Merry Christmas.
     
  17. KenC
    Joined: Sep 14, 2006
    Posts: 625

    KenC
    Member

    Great find! Hate to send anyone away from the HAMB, but this is a specialized item so I'd recommend posting here:
    http://www.forwardlook.net/
    Dedicated to cars produced in those years and lots of value knowledge there and maybe some sales leads.
     
  18. KenC
    Joined: Sep 14, 2006
    Posts: 625

    KenC
    Member

    Not an expert but I think it fits only the 277 and 318.
     
  19. classiccarjack
    Joined: Jun 30, 2009
    Posts: 1,460

    classiccarjack
    Member

    I have the same set up, the value is not high as it is for a Poly. But these are very cool!!!

    Sent from my SM-G986U using The H.A.M.B. mobile app
     
  20. 73RR
    Joined: Jan 29, 2007
    Posts: 6,602

    73RR
    Member

    Only the 'A' series engines. 277-301-303-313-318-326
    And the 301 is the PLY only, not the 55 Chrysler.

    .
     
    Frankie47, Hnstray, loudbang and 2 others like this.
  21. jimmy six
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 9,719

    jimmy six
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Big base carbs... not the same.
     
  22. jimmy six
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 9,719

    jimmy six
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Great find. Definitely the correct carbs for a dual quad set up. Not a Plymouth/Dodge but I have quite a bit in my Ford Y set up with WCFB’s and it has run perfect for 6 years. If I had a early Poly this would fit I would be lusting over it... I hope it finds a home and is used. I wouldn’t worry about air cleaners.... that’s what they make kitchen stores for. 4221C278-8973-4B76-8B60-8BAB9A0FAE04.jpeg
     
  23. I think your wrong, comparing the base plates on the Mopar and your Ford , the bolt location seems to be in a different location compared to the carb body. WCFB with big base on Mopar and square bolt pattern on your Ford. This is a good question for @carbking
     
  24. carbking
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 3,124

    carbking
    Member

    The throttle body bolt patterns of all 4-barrels were originally the "square" 3 3/4 x 3 7/8. This started changing about 1955 with some companies.

    This link from my website should explain:

    https://www.thecarburetorshop.com/Four_barrel_mounting_flanges.htm

    The early experimental Ford dual quads DID use Carter WCFB's (memory says 2361s). I sold one of the experimental manifolds with a pair of the WCFB's a few years ago. All of the early Ford dual quads (the early Carter, and the later Holley) were the "square" format.

    Some of the earlier MoPar dual quads also were the "square" pattern.

    Jon.
     
  25. jimmy six
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 9,719

    jimmy six
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    Your right when I expand the photo to look closer. I also didn’t realize photos of the manifold were the same as the first photo.
     
  26. jimmy six
    Joined: Mar 21, 2006
    Posts: 9,719

    jimmy six
    ALLIANCE MEMBER

    The early Ford and Mercury law enforcement option, dealer installed, used both the Holley hated “teapot” and Carter WCFB’s and both were rated at 260 hp using the 312’s. The Holleys had different numbers from the normal 4 barrels and were calibrated to be used with the loadmatic distributor with straight linkage. NASCAR also approved the dual quad option. The manifolds were slightly different than the aftermarket ones and definitely different than the 57 E code option. The 1956 part number kit for the Ford was B6A-9000-B
    The Mercury used the WCFB’s on the cars made at one of their assembly plants and were used on their version of their NASCAR entries.
    All of them were square small base in 56 for the Fords and Mercs. As you said for Mopars, Dodges also used the small base in 56 dual quad option for NASCAR. I believe the 56 Chrysler’s dual quad option also used small bases but the Pontiac’s were the large base. I found all this when documenting the 260 HP option for the Fords.
    Purolator air cleaners were mandated by NASCAR and were slightly different for each manufacturer.. They are the “hens teeth” today and only used in 1956...Here is a photo of the Ford/Merc. The other side shows the proper Purolator decal. IMG_0064.JPG
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2020
  27. Easy way to pick the Poly 277-325 Plymouth intake is those 2 vertical bosses on the lower left of the 1st picture that Junkhorder posted............all Plymouth Poly intakes have them.......I've had a couple of these intakes over the years, the 1st back in the mid 70's used the original WCFB's......Water Closet Four Barrel(shithouse four barrel).......being young & stupid I threw a couple of carby kits in these carbys, then proceeded to burn my nose hair off and singe my eyebrows due to backfires..........lol............replaced them with a pair of 600 Holleys on Offy crossrams........with a big cam, headwork & high stall converter it idled at about 1200 and went great ...........lol........not...... .....lol........replaced with a Wieand single 4 intake & one 600 Holley which is still there 40 yrs later tho' I did consider a pair of Edelbrocks on another twin 4 factory intake a couple of yrs ago............heres a couple of pics..........BTW.......these manifolds are well known to have major issues with the heat crossover underneath cracking allowing exhaust gasses into the engine, also the exhaust heat tube inside this crossover cracks ..........the manifolds are relatively common on ebay, asking prices vary but anything from $200-$500 is common .............due to the small venturi and bolt pattern, AFB's and Edelbrock carbys require adaptors to fit..................andyd
     

    Attached Files:

    loudbang likes this.
  28. carbking
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 3,124

    carbking
    Member

    Currently, as far as I am aware, the most difficult issue with the restoration of the 1957-58 318 dual quad set-up is the choke heat tube INSIDE the intake manifold. This is a steel tube underneath the rectangular bracket that is fastened to the intake on the passenger side. Everyone I have ever seen is burned out.

    I searched in vain a few years ago to see if anyone had reproduced this part.

    I also contacted one of the well-known tubing bending companies who said they could do it, if I submitted a print. I did so, and they charged me a large fee for "custom" work which wasn't even close to my print, and then refused to issue a refund, and told me the tube could not be made. When I asked how it had been made in the first place, the "customer service" rep hung up on me.

    A couple of years ago, I found an older tool and die maker, showed him the problem, and the DiAcro tubing bending machine in my shop. He custom made the tooling to bend the tube for me; but in the meantime, we had to move our shop, so my bending machine is not currently set up to bend the tube.

    So, forgive my verbosity, but does anyone know if this part has been reproduced at this time, and if so, who might sell it?

    Jon
     
  29. Jon..........even with a nice new tube how are you going to install it? ......isn't it installed when the manifold is cast at the foundry?............I had the openings welded up on the manifold shown in my post as I was going to run a manual choke if needed.......andyd
     
  30. carbking
    Joined: Dec 20, 2008
    Posts: 3,124

    carbking
    Member

    Andy - it is a removable/replaceable item (or it would be replaceable if I ever get around to bending the tube).

    The "choke stove" is a flat piece of steel approximately 2 inches long by 1/2 inch wide (memory). The flat piece of steel is attached to the manifold with two bolts.

    On the top side, there are two tubes welded into place: (1) one maybe 3/4 inch long open straight up which connects to the choke tube to the rear carburetor, (2) one which goes up maybe 1/2 inch and makes a 180 degree bend that is open to the underhood air.

    On the underside, the top tubes are connected to two tubes in the shape of a modified "U" which go into the hole in the manifold approximate 3/4 inch, and bend at maybe a 135 degree angle.

    Fresh air enters the tube on the top with the 180 degree bend that is open, and is pulled via vacuum supplied by the choke housing on the rear carburetor through the tubing into the manifold where it is heated, and then through the choke connector tube to the choke housing. The heated air then heats the bimetallic strip inside the choke housing, and allows the internal choke pull-off to open the choke.

    A similar setup was used by Pontiac, and it has been reproduced (but will not fit the MoPar) If you check Ebay number 190929073284, you can see the Pontiac version. The picture might make the above text more understandable.

    The tubes on the Pontiac are connected at right angles to the mounting bolts, and on the MoPar they are parallel. Also, Pontiac used TWO tubes back to the carburetor, with the one for input air connected to the airhorn, so filtered air would be used, rather than dirty air.

    Look at the pictures supplied by 2deuces64 in this thread, to see the hole in the manifold, and the top side of the choke stove.

    Jon.
     
    Hnstray and loudbang like this.

Share This Page

Register now to get rid of these ads!

Archive

Copyright © 1995-2021 The Jalopy Journal: Steal our stuff, we'll kick your teeth in. Terms of Service. Privacy Policy.

Atomic Industry
Forum software by XenForo™ ©2010-2014 XenForo Ltd.